William Lane Craig vs. Christopher Hitchens: First Report

Tonight, Biola University hosted a debate between William Lane Craig and Christopher Hitchens on the question “Does God Exist?” The debate was moderated by Hugh Hewitt and seen live by several thousand in attendance at Biola and many more at remote locations in 30 states and several countries.

I’ve just returned home from the event and will record a number of my observations as a first report from the front lines.

  1. This event was no mere spectacle, but a legitimate debate that addressed substantive arguments.
  2. Everybody behaved themselves, including members of the audience.
  3. Bill Craig made two claims in his opening argument: (A) There are no good arguments for atheism, and (B) there are several good arguments for the existence of God (theism). The balance of his opening argument was devoted to four carefully delineated arguments and a fifth thesis about the role of experience in grounding belief in God. This organization of the case for God’s existence has been used by Bill Craig time and again. The first argument is a cosmological argument, based on the origin of the universe. The second was a version of the teleological argument that emphasizes the improbability of the existence of a universe inhabited by human beings, given the evidence of both physics and biology. Third, he argued that the best explanation for the existence of objective moral facts is the existence of God. Fourth, he stated three sets of historical facts that are uniformly accepted by New Testament scholars, which together provide ample evidence that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, implying the occurrence of an important miracle and hence the existence of God. Each argument was constructed as a valid deductive argument, so that rational denial of the conclusion would require a direct challenge to one or more of the premises in each argument. His fifth point was that belief in God can as well be grounded in direct experience of God, though this is not to be confused with an argument for the existence of God. He ended with a challenge to Christopher Hitchens to show how these arguments err, and also argue that God does not exist.
  4. Bill Craig made the interesting point that believers in God should not be so distracted by arguments for the existence of God that they miss the experience of God.
  5. In his opening argument, Christopher Hitchens argued first that Bill Craig is not a consistent evidentialist, and that, to the extent that Craig is an evidentialist, he is, like any evidentialist Christian, a “retrospective evidentialist” who appeals to evidence now that no theist could have centuries ago. Further to this point, Hitchens suggested that contemporary (Christian) theists have, in the face of scientific evidence for evolution, “retreated” from their earlier strategies by claiming that evolution is evidence for theism, or is at least compatible with theism. Next he argued that even if God did exist (by which I think he meant the God mentioned in the conclusion of Craig’s arguments), no reason has been given to believe that this God cares, while there are reasons to think this God is indifferent. (I think, consistent with his practice in his book god Is Not Great, Hitchens would use the word “god” without caps.) His third point was that Craig is obligated to “prove to a certainty” that God exists, while atheists like himself rightly value the role of doubt in the absence of evidence and intellectual humility. This led directly to disclaimers about Craig’s definition of the term “atheism”—Hitchens regards himself as an “a-theist” in the sense that he believes no good reasons exist for believing God exists and so he does not believe that God does exist. Thus, he does not claim to know that God does not exist; therefore, he has no obligation to argue that God does not exist. He concluded with a direct response to the teleological, or fine-tuning argument, for theism. First he said that most physicists acknowledge that “we hardly know what we don’t know” about the origin of the universe and its early history. This looks more like an objection to Craig’s cosmological argument, so Hitchens may have mispoken. He then said there were three “layman’s reasons” for rejecting the fine-tuning argument. I was only able to distinguish two, since they were not enumerated clearly. First, he asked whether prior to the beginning of the universe there was pre-existing matter, as a step toward the question, “Who designed the Designer?” Second, he asked whether theists have considered the “nothingness that is coming,” his point being that the universe will eventually fade into oblivion and that therefore the so-called “Designer” seems to have designed poorly.
  6. The two opening speeches differed dramatically. Bill Craig laid out a case in straightforward manner, with numbered premises and his conclusion. (A complete outline of his cumulative case was included on one sheet of the program that was printed for the occasion.) Christopher Hitchens adopted more of a narrative style that was more loosely argued and less linear in its progression. Both were articulate and engaging.
  7. In the rebuttal, cross-examination, and response portions of the debate that followed, Bill Craig pressed Christopher Hitchens on his conception of atheism, his reasons for being an atheist, and his responses to the arguments presented in Craig’s opening speech. In this respect, Craig was in greater control of themes in the debate. This was helped immensely by the clear progression, crisp identification, and repetition of his original arguments. Hitchens resisted Craig’s efforts to extract a more precise definition of Hitchens’s atheism than his simple denial that there is adequate evidence for theism. Hitchens claimed that if you believe the universe is designed, then you also have to believe the designer is short on the excellence attributed by theists to God. There is a tension between there being a god who is completely indifferent to human suffering, or a god who provides a bizarre remedy in the form of having “someone tortured to death during the Bronze Age” and Roman rule, a god who demands conformity to his requirements in order to be saved from damnation, and, in any case, who leaves countless individuals without opportunity to hear about and accept this remedy.
  8. The most noteworthy difference between these debaters consists in this: preparation. One may agree or disagree with Bill Craig’s claims, but there can be no question that he was thoroughly prepared for every aspect of the debate and never faltered in his response to objections by Hitchens. Christopher Hitchens, on the other hand, dropped several of Craig’s opening arguments, and seriously misunderstood or distorted the moral argument, the argument from the resurrection of Jesus, and Craig’s appeal to experience. I think Craig was most successful in demonstrating the error in Hitchens’s discombobulated rendition of Craig’s moral argument. Whether the audience followed the competing interpretations of N. T. Wright’s historical argument concerning the probability of the resurrection is another matter. But I can vouch for Craig’s construal of Wright’s argument, and, for that matter, for Hitchens’s confusion on the point. As for the appeal to experience of God (and the witness of the Holy Spirit), I might have put the point differently than Craig did and treat it as a kind of evidence that serves the subject of the experience without the need for argument. But Bill Craig and I may have a different view of the epistemology of such experience.
  9. Christopher Hitchens made a couple of odd points in his rebuttal, as if to answer arguments or objections that Bill Craig had not given. For example, he asserted that he believes in free will, and went on about it as if Craig had pressed him directly on this point. This was a strategic mistake, if only because it wasted valuable time that should have been devoted to what was already on the table. Worse, Craig could have challenged Hitchens’s claim to believe in free will, given his naturalism. I gather that Hitchens sensed this, saw its relevance to the question of moral conduct, and attempted to pre-empt Craig on the point. But Hitchens’s complete failure to understand the moral argument presented by Craig landed him in enough serious trouble as it was. Hitchens also digressed about the embarrassing canonization of Mother Theresa by the Roman Catholic Church. I suppose he couldn’t resist, since he had written a whole book on the subject. (See this link for the crass title of that book.)
  10. The only thing that surprised me about Bill Craig’s strategy in the debate was his determination to get Hitchens to specify more precisely his self-identification as an atheist. Much of Craig’s cross-examination time was taken up with this question. That is due in part to Hitchens’s bobbing and weaving on the point. I understand Craig’s rationale for tasking Hitchens with clarification of his position. I’ve encountered the same maneuver in my debates with Michael Shermer and Greg Cavin, for example. As I see it, regardless of the standards of formal debate, both parties to a debate of such existential significance should be clear about their own positions and be prepared to present good reasons for them. (While this is a burden of proof issue, the term “burden of proof” never came up, if I remember correctly.) Christopher Hitchens has a worldview. It is thoroughly naturalistic and scientistic, and indeed materialistic. It hardly matters what he means by “atheism” in application to himself, since this is clearly his positive stance. And he made no attempt to argue that his worldview is true. Bill Craig is right about this.
  11. Christopher Hitchens’s attempt to distinguish between the hubris of the argumentative theist (my term) and the intellectual humility of his kind of atheist was totally unconvincing. Hitchens’s tone in the debate, consistent with his hallmark practice, belied his disclaimers about claims to knowledge. Once, in his closing argument, Bill Craig drew attention to this point, and did so dramatically but graciously. He pointed out that Hitchens made his own truth claims on behalf of atheism, that he did so without supporting argument, and that “you’ve got to come to a debate prepared with arguments.” While Hitchens did make arguments, they were largely unfocused, sometimes disconnected, and often irrelevant.
  12. The second half of cross-examination must have been interesting to the predominantly evangelical audience. Christopher Hitchens asked Bill Craig directly whether he believes that there are devils, that Jesus was born of a virgin, that some nonChristian religions are false, and that some Christian denominations entertain false beliefs. Craig answered each, respectively: yes, yes, yes, and yes. But he added (a) that the existence or non-existence of demons has no bearing on his argument from the resurrection for theism, (b) that while he did not think the virgin birth could be proved, whether it happened is also irrelevant to his case for theism, (c) that Islam is among the false religions, and (d) that while there are differences among Christian brethren (Craig is not a Calvinist but more of a Wesleyan, for example), their differences are on less substantive points. While Craig may not have expected this line of questioning, he answered well. It was a sign of Hitchens’s lack of preparation, I believe, that his cross-examination of Craig was unproductive. (One further indication of this is that Craig’s answers were never brought up for special criticism.)
  13. The main development of the cross-examination period is that Hitchens allowed that morality could be “purely evolutionary and functional.” Given his comments on morality throughout the evening, I don’t see how they could be anything else than that on his view. Thus, he is, Craig would argue, caught in a contradiction if he also claims that morality is objective in the sense Craig defined. And Hitchens had made such a claim. Note: Hitchens could hardly have denied this and remained consistent with his condemnation of religion in his book.
  14. Speaking of Hitchens’s condemnation of religion, I think he found the balance that was needed if he was to remain faithful to the spirit and tone of his book without completely alienating his audience. His diatribes in god Is Not Great are mean and visceral in the extreme. During tonight’s debate, he was more cautious in his declamations. He did say “I’ll be damned” if I don’t say what I really think of religion and Christianity. But this was mild in comparison with what Hitchen is capable of. The problem is—and he knew this—his off-the-cuff remarks were not germane to the debate. Someone reading his book for the first time after seeing this debate may be surprised by the venom they find, but they probably will not be shocked. I say this because I do think it was a delicate balancing act for him to be more measured while still acting in character.
  15. Christopher Hitchens attempted to drag Old Testament accounts of “genocide” and other divine sanctions of dubious moral character into the debate. This was predictable. Bill Craig rightly noted that these complaints concern the inerrancy and inspiration of Scripture, and are not salient to his case for theism. Some in the audience may have wondered how Craig could avoid these issues and also invoke the New Testament in describing the grandeur of God’s plan of salvation. As it happens, Hitchens didn’t raise the point. But it also happens that there is no inconsistency in Craig’s view of the bearing of Scripture on aspects of the debate.
  16. Another comparison of interest to me has to do with the existential appeal of their respective points of view. Bill Craig seemed actually to be enjoying the dialogue (as one of my daughters noted). Certainly he was unapologetic about his Christian faith. He spoke convincingly of the transformation of his life after believing in Christ. And he explained the basis Christians have for hope in this life and the next. He even urged Christopher Hitchens to become a Christian, since Hitchens wants to say that there are objective moral values but can’t account for them in his worldview. Craig said this without seeming the least bit supercilious. I thought Craig struck an excellent balance in describing the future hope of Christians and its bearing on the endurance of suffering now, and a Christian activism on behalf of those who are oppressed or even deprived of life. For his part, Hitchens explained that he finds meaning in life by seeking liberty for himself and for others, and that, since so much violence against humanity is done in the name of religion, he is constrained to combat religion publicly.
  17. I’ve already mentioned how Christopher Hitchens responded to Bill Craig’s moral argument for theism. It struck me that this argument was the most widely discussed of them all. The irony is that for all that he had to say in response, Hitchens actually “dropped” the argument. (To say that he “dropped” the argument is to say, in debate-speak, that he didn’t actually address the argument.) In his response to Craig’s argument, Hitchens recast the argument as an argument that atheists can neither know what is morally right nor do the morally right thing unless they believe in God. That is not the argument at all. It baffles me that so many atheist, agnostic, and skeptical debaters distort this argument so consistently. The question is how to ground the objectivity of moral truths without reference to God, not whether moral truths can be known without believing in God or whether it’s possible to behave morally without believing in God. The point is neither epistemic nor behavioral, but ontological. My preferred formulation of the moral argument is a little different than Craig’s, but my experience has been the same as his. Debate opponents miss the point.
  18. Returning, finally, to something I mentioned previously, this debate exposed a difference in preparation on the part of these two debaters. This is far more significant than it might seem at first. William Lane Craig has debated this topic dozens of times, without wavering from the same basic pattern of argument. He presents the same arguments in the same form, and presses his opponents in the same way for arguments in defense of their own worldviews. He’s consistent. He’s predictable. One might think that this is a liability, that it’s too risky to face a new opponent who has so much opportunity to review Craig’s specific strategy. But tonight’s debate proves otherwise. Hitchens can have no excuse for dropping arguments when he knows—or should know—exactly what to expect. Suppose one replies that William Craig is a more experienced debater and a trained philosopher, while Christopher Hitchens is a journalist working outside the Academy. That simply won’t do as a defense of Hitchens. First, Hitchens is no stranger to debate. Second, he is clearly a skillful polemicist. Third—and most important—Hitchens published a book, god Is Not Great, in which he makes bold claims against religion in general and Christianity in particular. With his book, he threw down the challenge. To his credit, he rose to meet a skillful challenger. But did he rise to the occasion? Did he acquit himself well? At one point he acknowledged that some of his objections to the designer argument were “layman’s” objections. His book, I believe, is also the work of a layman. It appears to have been written for popular consumption and without concern for accountability to Christians whose lives are dedicated to the defense of the Gospel.

Much more can be said about the debate. I’m confident that it will elicit much discussion worldwide. Viewers and listeners will draw their own conclusions. But after tonight, there is reason to think—as Bill Craig suggested—that we may soon witness a great renaissance of Christianity.

Recommended Reading:

227 Responses to “William Lane Craig vs. Christopher Hitchens: First Report”

  1. On behalf of all of us who missed the debate, thanks for this summary, Doug.

    Concerning points 5 and 10, I think it’s worth pointing out how widely underdiscussed the burden of proof seems to be in this context, along with the relevance of the kinds of attitudes we bring with us to the inquiry. A few years back, some fellow wrote an article called “A Pascalian Rejoinder to the Presumption of Atheism,” which–in my humble opinion–is an important contribution to this discussion. The same fellow is also thanked, I believe, for comments on an earlier draft of Paul Moser’s “Cognitive Idolatry and Divine Hiding.”

    Shalom!

  2. ‘Fourth, he stated three sets of historical facts that are uniformly accepted by New Testament scholars, which together provide ample evidence that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, implying the occurrence of an important miracle and hence the existence of God. ‘

    Has Craig now dropped his fourth ‘fact’?

  3. Thanks fo this review. I had predicted Dr. Craig would win and you’ve just confirmed it. Maybe someday I’ll get a crack ot debating him.

  4. MP3 Audio is here.

  5. e2gordy Says:

    I believe that Hitchens third argument against teleology (your note 5) was that the extraordinary time required for the big bang and the # of species that have died out made the designer cruel and inefficient and wasteful. I think Hitchens conflated the two common objections (A) problem evil in nature and (B) the idea that a designer must be perfect.

    Thanks for the great wrap up.

    Gordy

  6. Thank you for this clear and even-handed review.

    Concerning the grounding of morality, you wrote:

    “It baffles me that so many atheist, agnostic, and skeptical debaters distort this argument so consistently.”

    I concur. I remember Hitchens in another debate amateurishly not responding to this issue, choosing rather to set fire to a figure of straw. I remember wondering if Hitchens really did not understand or if he just could not answer. Certainly answers are available, since plenty of moral philosophers have ethical theories not grounded on theism. In addition, there are arguments that morality cannot be grounded on theism.

    Not that I wish to hash out these arguments here, but to just emphasize your point that Hitchens was ill-prepared and to also agree that most atheists are not capable of answering this difficult question.

    Thanks again.

  7. Thanks for this outline about the debate. It seems that I have really missed something here completely.

  8. Wow, Doug. Great summary and insights. Thank you for taking the time to share with those of us who couldn’t attend.

  9. Vincent Martinez Says:

    I appreciate your faithful recap of the debate. I’m a student at Cleveland State University and, although I am not on course to be an apologist (some of my friends are), I believe my relationship with Christianity and faith is undeniably influential to my narrative and auteurship as a filmmaker. I agree that Christopher Hitchens did not have a logical throughline in his arguments with the exception of his personal experiences with God or Christianity.
    I was surprised that Hitchens did not pursue further the convenient adaptation of mainstream Christian belief in the face of evidence and discovery by science. Decades ago, there was no allowance for evolution within mainstream Christian doctrine. In particular, I’m talking about the creation of the world in six days. I may be mistaken, but I recall that Bill Craig seemed satisfied to rebut Hitchen’s point on (in my own words) “convenient adaptation” especially in regard to the creation in Genesis. Craig rebutted with two points. First, that there is (in my own words) leeway or camps of interpretation on this portion of the Bible especially with the 6 days of creation timeframe. Second, that a Christian scholar (I can’t recall his name) had, years before Darwin, discussed (almost in prophetic preparation) this matter in such a way as to provide Christian doctrine “a way out” so to speak. I take issue with both of these points from logical dissatisfaction and can’t see why from a tactical standpoint, Hitchens would not target them with an offensive. I’m sure you have already anticipated my first question.
    If the six day timeframe of the creation of the world can be given to interpretation and categorized in an anecdotal nature such as some of the psalms and proverbs, how can legitimacy of any exact words of the rest of the body of work hold up in an objective way? It is my understanding that within the camps of Christian faith, there is a wide range of disagreement on just how much Biblical text can be taken literally or not. Obviously disagreements of this nature weaken the Calvinists, Wesleyans, and all other Christian camps in the argument for theism. Authorship of biblical text varies, but is it fair to give ratios of weight to certain portions of Biblical text over others such as the six day creation of the world text or the several eye account witnesses by followers of Jesus who discovered an empty tomb? There are a great many books that Christians use to contextualize or legitimize portions of the Bible. But, again, it seems to me that there is a range of differences over these augmentations as well.
    And with regard two Craig’s second point, it is suspicious that there is a sudden allegiance to a little known, if not, rogue theory that has not been mainstream belief decades ago and before the emergence of hard science in support of the evolution theory. It would seem that during the advent of “convenient adaptation,” Christians dug up a doctrine (and Christianity is a religion prolific with a universal range of doctrine) to digest and accompany the theory of evolution.
    I concede to the skeptical tone of my questions. However, I can’t tolerate convenient construction to support my belief system. I am very eager to hear your thoughts on this.

  10. Nicole Vandelaar Says:

    Greetings Doug.

    I appreciate your detailed account of last night’s debate. I enjoyed myself at the event, and there were a number of times I wanted to jump up on stage and speak with Bill Craig myself…lol!

    I must say, that Hitchens was obviously not following an organized outline of any sort as Craig was. However, I think Craig’s delivery last night is a great example of how an organized set of rules, beliefs, and concepts can be so ingrained in a person’s mind, that they fail to live in the vulnerability of the moment, which is a portal into the power the formless consciousness of a power greater than ourselves. While I do think Hitchens could have had somewhat more of a looser outline, Craig was so concerned with his outline that he missed a number of opportunities to explore deep questions that pain and confuse many believers who are trying to follow a set of principles that do not always make logical sense. Craig’s outline and “plan” for last night’s debate was so well researched, thought out, and supported that of course he could respond to any question, however his responses were nothing new. He couldn’t hear because he was so identified with his plan and,furthermore, winning the debate. I will point out that yhe essence of the power of this dynamic universe lies within the ever changing moment that cannot be nailed down through any man-made mental construct that gives an individual a false sense of security through sense perceptions of solidity…which is what I heard from Craig last night in his execution. Which is s divine example on a minuscule level of how a planned out set of rules, concepts, and beliefs can obstruct the power of the true universe. Ironically, it takes a lot of faith to “let go,” and and feel the essence of a power great than oneself that cannot be understood by the human mind.

    In love and Spirit,
    Nicole V.

  11. Thanks for all that. I have been looking into applying to Talbot and this sort of thing really attracts me to going there.

  12. This was a great recap, thank you!

  13. great post. i hope the great renaissance comes soon. Praise God!

  14. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi emjay (Matt),

    Thanks for your kind comments about my article, “A Pascalian Rejoinder to the Presumption of Atheism,” which appears in the book God Matters: Readings in the Philosophy of Religion.

  15. Thanks for this, we really wanted to be able to link to someone who was there and who could give a great summary and you definately fit the bill!

  16. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Steven,

    I’m not sure what you mean by Craig’s “fourth ‘fact.’” In his 1984 book Apologetics: An Introduction (Moody Press), Bill Craig writes: “The case for the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus seems to me to rest upon the evidence for three great, independently established facts: the empty tomb, the resurrection appearances, and the origin of the Christian faith” (p. 185). 272). That was over twenty years ago. In the 1994 revised edition of his book, with the new title Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics, the same statement appears verbatim on page 272. In his debate with Antony Flew in 1998, he stated, “there are exactly three established facts, recognized by the majority of New Testament historians today, which I believe are best explained by the Resurrection of Jesus” (see Does God Exist? The Craig-Flew Debate, pp. 22-23). This has been his standard practice for more than two decades: to enumerate the same three factual claims supported by research among New Testament historians. He presented the same evidence last night. If anything, the consensus on each point has grown stronger in recent years. (In the Craig-Flew debate book, I have a chapter that includes a four-page discussion of this part of Bill Craig’s case for theism.)

  17. I thought Craig said there were 4 facts, as recently as his debate with Richard Carrier.

    Has anybody in history ever named himself as having seen an empty tomb?

    And isn’t it a fact that early Christian converts in Corinth were openly scoffing at the idea of their god choosing to raise corpses?

    And the church in Thessalonia seemed to be getting worried about the fate of corpses as well

  18. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi John Loftus,

    I didn’t know of your website debunkingchristianity.com until your comment. So thanks for dropping in. I enjoyed reading your post and the comments various readers left about it.

  19. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Brian,

    Is the MP3 at the link you give an authorized recording of the debate with high quality audio? I’m sure the DVD will be available soon.

  20. Doug Geivett Says:

    Thanks, Gordy. I think you’re right. Hitchens did make that point more than once.

  21. I have removed the MP3 and am pointing people to the official audio and video on that link now.

  22. Mark Linville Says:

    Great review. Thanks, Doug.

    I wish I could have been there!

    Marl

  23. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi UnBeguiled,

    Right you are. Some moral philosophers hold that moral values or truths are abstract objects and that, as such, they need not depend on any relation to divine existence or divine will. Hitchens may be prevented from endorsing such a view because of his social Darwinism and his version of scientism.

  24. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Rob,

    I know you would have been there if you could. But it’s a long drive from Oregon!

  25. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Vincent,

    I’m fascinated by your interest in filmmaking and the exploration of worldviews. I’ve edited a book on Faith, Film, and Philosophy that may interest you.

    Three quick points:

    (1) For over a hundred years, conservative Christian thinkers have considered Darwin’s general theory of evolution to be compatible with plausible interpretations of the book of Genesis. Even some of Darwin’s contemporaries accepted this. And it is a mark of intellectual virtue to welcome evidence from any quarter in the effort both to believe what’s true and to understand the Bible aright.

    (2) The person named by Bill Craig in his debate is Augustine of Hippo, a major theologian and philosopher of the Church, acknowledged as such by Catholic and Protestant traditions. Augustine is by no means a rogue figure in the history of Christianity, nor is he the only one who considered such views as possible. But of course, it wasn’t until the development of the science of biology that substantive empirical evidence could be considered, one way or the other.

    (3) The science of biblical hermeneutics, or the interpretation of the Bible, is far more complex than what is suggested in your welcome comment. Among the books I recommend on this fascinating topic is the IVP reference work Dictionary of Major Biblical Interpreters, edited by Donald K. McKim.

  26. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Nicole,

    I agree that argument can distract from the existentially deep issues of heart and commitment. But I believe Bill Craig actually made that point at the end of his opening argument. This is the limitation of debate. Debate is a venue for the presentation of arguments. It is by no means the only context for reflection on reality and values and their relevance to our lives. So just as it would be unsuitable to fixate on arguments at the exclusion of life application in sermons from the pulpit, so it would be unseemly to participate in a “debate” but practice narrative at the neglect of argument. So context is key.

    Could you give some examples of specific points that Bill Craig missed or didn’t hear, because he was so concerned with his outline?

    Also, are you assuming that his argument for theism is ineffective if it does not evolve into different permutations of argument over time? Why shouldn’t the evidence he’s always presented be good evidence simply because it’s the same evidence he’s always presented?

  27. My own summary based on the video is here:
    http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2009/04/04/the-debate-so-far/

    Other resources, including audio from last week’s debate between Hitchens and Craig at the Christian Book Expo in Dallas, are linked here:
    http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2009/04/05/audio-from-wiliam-lane-craig-vs-christopher-hitchens-debate/

    The second link includes book reviews of Hitchens’ book by Melinda Penner and Doug Groothuis.

  28. “we may soon witness a great renaissance of Christianity”

    I think this final statement is probably true, but I suggest we should recognise that God may be doing some “purification” first. As Vincent Martinez says, answering the “new atheists” on the fate of those who follow other religions, on evolution and Old Testament bloodshed, is leading christians into less literal interpretations and slightly more inclusivist doctrines. I believe we can see God using the new atheists to reform our teaching.

    But further, I think we all know that the modern, affluent, western church needs to change. We have too often been uncaring, judgmental, superficial and seeking our own comfort and wealth before the kingdom of God. We have too often failed to serve and offer grace. We have had too many leaders who have brought disgrace to the name of Jesus. We need to lift our game!

    So yes, I think we can look forward with hope, but we will need to embrace change, repentance, grace and humility. And the new atheists will have been a necessary catalyst in the hand of God.

  29. What do you think when a child is enlightened by the Holy Spirit only to be held captive in the training of ritualisms instead of being trained into a repentant and forgiven life with Christ? The vulnerability of the child and the offense may not be able to be articulated at such a young age. Thus, the seed was sewn, but living a life of having to know it all, will impede the faith that it takes to have that seed grow. I think that when you are striving to prove all earthly wisdom, you will miss the freedom of having the Holy Spirit bring you the truth.

  30. [...] William Lane Craig vs. Christopher Hitchens: First Report Tonight, Biola University hosted a debate between William Lane Craig and Christopher Hitchens on the question [...] [...]

  31. Hi Doug. Thanks for your review of the debate and for your well balanced responses to the other posters. I feel affinity with some of the posters questions regarding Craig’s modus operandi but I am in complete agreement with you as to why he shouldn’t change his reasoning just because it is always the same reasoning. If something is true then it is true, why change it?

    Anyway I hope Hitchens himself can look back and see why his worldview is based on very shaky ground whereas the case for theism is firmly established in claims that are obviously irrefutable. If they weren’t then why hasn’t somebody conclusively refuted them already?

    To God be the praise.

    Jason

  32. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Madeleine,

    I’m glad you found my post. Your MandM site looks great. I look forward to reading more articles. If you don’t mind, I’d like to add MandM to my blogroll.

    By the way, do you know my friend Michael Denton, who lives and works in New Zealand? He’s made great contributions to the proper understanding of evolution theory.

    -Doug

  33. Doug, how come you don’t blog as much on apologetics and philosophy of religion on your blog? I really like your apologetics work.

    For example, are you having any debates these days? Publishing any papers? Just wondering…

  34. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi again, Steven. Bill Craig may have presented four facts in during his debate with Richard Carrier. If so, that would be a departure from his usual practice. But three, four or whatever, the argument deserves to be taken seriously and answered point for point. I’m sure that Richard thinks this can be done, that, indeed, he can do it himself.

    My brief take on your three points:

    (1) Yes, a number of people have identified themselves as eyewitnesses to the empty tomb of Jesus, within a brief time following his crucifixion and burial. Mary Magdalene did this when she reported her experience to Jesus disciples on that early Easter morning. Two of them, Peter and John, went to see for themselves and corroborated their testimony. The apostle Paul met with Jesus’ disciples to query them about the faith (see Galatians), and left satisfied with what they reported. This is reflected in Paul’s remarks in 1 Corinthians. The Gospels themselves are informed by eyewitness testimony. Of course, some who saw the empty tomb also saw Jesus alive after the resurrection, while others who saw Jesus may never have visited the tomb. Further to the point, a rumor began to spread immediately that Jesus’ body was stolen by his disciples. The best explanation for this rumor is that the empty was empty tomb and that the enemies of Jesus knew this. This is the kind of historical evidence we have that some discovered the tomb to be empty and considered this remarkable and one basis for believing that Jesus had risen. But they might not have believed this if they had not also seen him alive.

    (2) You’ll have to present evidence that members of the Christian church at Corinth, true converts to Christianity there, were scoffers. 1 Corinthians 15 addresses concerns that some in Corinth had about whether the dead would be raised. Second, you’ll have to state more clearly what you mean by “scoffing at the idea of their god choosing to raise corpses.” Third, while I gather that you consider this somehow relevant to Bill Craig’s case for the resurrection, I fail to see how it does.

    (3) The earliest Christians who expected the return of Jesus in their lifetime did wonder what if would mean if he tarried. Paul addressed these concerns, as did the apostle John, in the Apocalypse (or Book of Revelation).

  35. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Mark L.,

    I know. You would have enjoyed it.

  36. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hello Wintery Knight. Thanks for the links.

  37. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi unkle e,

    We can’t know what God is up to. But we can press on. And as you say, we have more to learn about how best to engage the culture. I think it’s a mistake to talk of engagement in terms of a “culture war.” Our efforts should be motivated by love for others, whoever they are. Our methods of engagement should be practiced from Christian virtue. The business of the Christian in the world today is to appeal to others to be reconciled to God. That is, we are peacemakers by vocation. (See 2 Corinthians 5.)

    The fanfare generated by the neo-atheists does two things for the Church. First, as you point out, it keeps believers tooled up to respond more effectively to concerns that many, Christian and nonChristian, have had for quite some time. The case for Christianity is strengthened by the necessity to respond the specific issues that are the rage today. Second, it draws public attention to the possibility of making sense of Christianity and the sense it can make of our lives. Because the neo-atheists are so visible, direct engagement with them by thoughtful believers will also be visible. This can hardly be the intended fruit of neo-atheist denunciations of religion. But we know what God says about the wisdom of the world, don’t we?

  38. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Sue,

    I see your point. But I think it assumes an extreme form of cultural determinism. Also, while it’s true that we are fallible in our understanding, we nevertheless require some reason to believe what we believe. As I often say, human beings are naturally truth-interested and exquisitely evidence-sensitive.

  39. Just to clarify,
    Craig changes his number of points with regularity. For instance, when debating Shabir Ally, he split a point into the two points that Jesus was crucified and that he actually died since the Quran seems to imply that he was neither crucified nor dead. In that debate, I think he actually had five points: 1. Jesus was crucified, 2. Jesus died, 3. Jesus received an honorable burial, 4. Jesus’ tomb was empty, 5. Jesus’ followers experienced the risen Jesus and believed he had been resurrected. His points depend on his opponent and their typical arguments against the resurrection.

  40. Hi Doug,

    In his debate with Walter Sinnott-Armstrong, Craig says the hypothesis, “God raised Jesus from the dead” explains four facts: (1) “After his crucifixion Jesus was buried by Joseph of Arimathea in a tomb”; (2) “On the Sunday after the crucifixion, Jesus’ tomb was found empty, by a group of his women followers”; (3) “On multiple occasions and under various circumstances, different individuals and groups of people experienced appearances of Jesus alive from the dead”; and (4) “The original disciples suddenly and sincerely came to believe that Jesus was risen from the dead despite their having every predisposition to the contrary.” These four facts can be found on pages 22-24 of God? A Debate Between a Christian and an Atheist. So, for whatever reason, Craig sometimes drops (1) from his list of facts. My guess is that he adds it if he thinks his interlocutor will dispute it.

  41. Hi Doug – thanks for that and yes please do add us, we would be honoured. We will return the favour as we too enjoyed finding your site.

    We regularly add more articles, the final installment of Belief without Proof will be up tomorrow and then I think the next philosophical series will be is an exegetical treatment with philosophical analysis planned for the Lex Talionis and the Alexandrian Argument. This if course will be interspersed with political, social and jurisprudential commentary and the odd bit of humour – in accord with our blend so as to appeal to lay philosophers as well as professionals. If you search the archives you will find nearly 3 years worth to keep you going!

    Michael Denton sounds very familiar, I will ask the other M, who is the Philosopher in residence and come back to you.

    This debate sounds very similar in places to the debate we organised with Bill Craig and Bill Cooke at Auckland University (we have video footage on our site). You really have to wonder at these lite-atheists who step up to debate Craig, Craig’s standard debate content is all over the web, he doesn’t deviate much – I clicked Craig’s powerpoint for him at the Auckland debate so I had a transcript in front of me of his opening statement and it was precisely what I had read and seen in his other debates, yet Cooke, (like you described Hitchens) seemed to not see it coming. It is like they are hearing his arguments for the very first time – where is their preparation? Try google!

  42. [...] an excellent “first report” of the debate, see Doug Geivett’s post.  For an atheist’s perspective, see Common Sense Atheism. For my response to his [...]

  43. Hi Dr. Geivett,

    Nice run down. I linked to it in my own review.

    I appreciate that Craig made such an evangelical appeal. I think it underscores a proper view of apologetics. Apologetics are rooted in the care for the lost, plain and simple. The debate should therefore give some Christians (who dismiss apologetics and philosophy as mere arguing about words) pause.

    FWIW, here is my review:

    debate

  44. nathanrelson Says:

    Reading your account of this debate has left me tarrying to get my work accomplished that I need to. But I feel compelled to comment. First, I have not had the opportunity to attend a debate of this sorts in the past, however I can say that I have been on both sides of this argument. As someone who once held to an almost strict orthodoxy of post-modernism, the one thing that never quite made sense for me was the seeming truth nature of moral law. For instance, “killing another human being is bad.” While for some individuals, this moral law is not applicable, for a great deal of understood human history this rule has been a societal norm. I was always left for want of a reason why thing such of that could be pervasive.

    On another note, I find it terrible fascinating the tension between evolutionists who invoke the idea of a long and wasteful creation period as a compelling reason to stand against Theism as a form of intelligent design (I refer specifically to the idea of death here). There seems to be an underlining assumption that death is a terminal state and an undesirable one at that. Could it not be argued from both a naturalist and a theistic perspective that death is not in and of itself a negative but a part of the process of existence existing? If naturalist are only concerned with matter – then who cares what form it is in? I would also hope to believe that death, as in physically death, is not seen as being a wasted state by most Theists (Christians in particular).

    Anyways, not fully formed thoughts but thoughts interesting to me nonetheless…

  45. C_R_Misley Says:

    Thank you for taking the time to write out this synopsis.

    I am curious what your personal opinions are, having a background in epistemology…

    It is fair to say my bias is present.

    Point 3 – Bill Craig’s arguments seem ubiquitous and generic among theologians.

    In regards to the debate, I cannot see how Hitchen’s could share the wealth of knowledge debunking religion in one evening. The research, inquiry, logic, and literature all exists, but it does not fit as nicely (and easily to understand) as that of religion, and god. As an active anti-theist, secular humanist, and critical thinking individual, I would much rather have had Richard Dawkins represent the community in debate.

    As a rather young individual, who has yet to exhaust the literature for ‘debunking religion’, I find myself utterly confused with how people believe in god. As a ‘heart-warming’ answer to, why we are here, what are here for, and where are we going, I can see its allure, but my acceptance ends there.

    Wish I had more time to share. I have schoolwork to attend. With the intention of ultimately bringing secular humanist ideals into the political system. I pray, pun intended, to see the day when a political speech can end without ‘god bless’.

  46. Hi Doug

    Great review,

    I read Denton’s book a few years ago. I have not met him but I believe he was at one stage working at the University of Otago where I did my PhD.

  47. Dr. Geivett, I have published guest posts on my blog from people like Bill Craig, Craig Bloomberg, James Sennett, Doug Groothuis, and John F. Haught, as is, and without comment from me. I extend to you that same opportunity. We get about 50,000 hits a month. Just email me.

    Cheers.

  48. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Matt,

    Yes, Mike Denton was (and may still be) affiliated with Otago. He’s working on a third book and wrote me about it recently.

  49. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Matt,

    Yes, Mike Denton was (and may still be) affiliated with Otago. He’s working on a third book and wrote me about it recently.

  50. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi again, John (Loftus). Thank you for kindly inviting me to write a guest post for your website. I’m not sure what I would write about, but I’ll give it some thought. -Doug

  51. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Wintery Knight,

    Thanks for your interest in the stuff I write for publication. A year ago I decided to experiment with blogging. My idea was to use it as a venue to write about other things I think and care about. Since it was an election year in the U.S., it was a great time to experiment. With the new administration and its hair-raising antics, I find now that I pay less attention to national politics. But I still like to write about things I’m reading and things I’m noticing about the culture.

    With your encouragement, I may start doing more here on philosophy of religion and epistemology. I’m working on a book on Christian apologetics, so I’ll have to be careful not to repeat here what I’m putting in the book, before the book even comes out.

  52. It’s about time some newer general apologetics books are written. Groothuis is writing one that I think may be the standard for years to come, and now I hear you’re doing the same. I look forward to them both. I can’t begin to tell you how inadequate such a project is from the get go, but the Christian community needs better books of this type. My book is being used in apologetics and atheist classes in both secular and Christian colleges. Perhaps you’ll consider dealing with my book in yours. Have you read the reviews of it?

  53. You know you’ve wrote a serious blog when both John Loftus and Steven Carr arrive in your comments. Loftus easily ranks in the worlds top 20 most notable atheists. Im surprised Carr’s not told us that his man Jef Lowder could lick Craig in debate.

    The salient fact is atheist no 1 Richard Dawkins has repeatedly refused to debate Craig, and reading your blog one can see why. Even John Lennox was able to force Dawkins to retract his previous claim that Jesus had probably ‘never existed’ and according to Melanie Philips to get him to admit a serious case can be made for the existence of a deity.

    Craig would probably have Dawkins publicly repenting! I was glad to read that Craig implored Hitchens to accept Christ. Its good for both sides that Christians are being more assertive.

    When an atheist “looses” by being converted, the reality is he wins the greatest prize of all, the Kingdom of Heaven.

  54. Doug, I met you at a philosophy conference in Wheaton around 2001. I asked you whether you thought that investing was gambling, and you spent some time talking to skeptical students as well. I was impressed by the way you handled them.

    Your lecture on the problems of evil for ACAP is my favorite audio resource on the topic. I could not possibly be more enthusiastic by the though of you blogging more on philosophy of religion and epistemology.
    I really hope you will take me up on it!

    Wintery Knight

    P.S. – My post on the problem of evil where I link to the audio of your lecture on the problems of evil is here:
    http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2009/03/17/everything-i-know-about-the-problems-of-evil-and-suffering-in-a-4-page-essay/

    I recommend everyone have a listen, as this is the best thing out there, in my opinion.

  55. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi John (Loftus),

    I look forward to reading your book. I teach a course on the New Atheism to a hundred students at a time. From the favorable reviews of your book, I have high expectations that it speaks directly to the case that has been made by evangelicalism’s most noted apologists. Maybe your publisher, Prometheus, would consider sending me a desk copy.

    I’m afraid Dan Barker goes a little over the top when he writes that anyone who reads the book “will have no choice but to discard the claims of Christianity.” Let’s face it, that’s a pretty freewheeling statement. I know Dan and have done a debate with him in Minnesota several years ago, and I don’t mean this to be personal. But I have to say that in general neither books nor debates, nor arguments in general, rise to the standard of leaving targets of argument with no choice but to believe or disbelieve x, y, or z.

  56. Doug Geivett Says:

    Thank you, Feyd. I trust that John and Steven chimed in because they believe my synopsis and commentary to be even-handed. I’m glad to have you visiting, as well! -Doug

  57. Doug Geivett Says:

    Wintery Knight,

    I don’t know what to say in response to your most recent comment on this post; it’s just so kind of you. Thank you, friend.

    I’m pretty sure if we met at a conference in 2001, you didn’t introduce yourself as “Wintery Knight.” I think I would have remembered that!

    It’s interesting that you should mention the recorded lecture on evil for ACAP. Just a couple of days ago a French university student majoring in modern languages wrote me that for one of her English assignments she was required to select something recorded in English, listen to it, summarize it, and write critical comments about it. She was writing to tell me she had selected that lecture on evil. She’s a Christian, studying in a much more secularized environment than we encounter here in the United States. But I mention this because of the coincidence—her note, and now yours.

  58. Diane Ortel Says:

    Thank you for the summary. I attended a broadcast of this debate last evening at a church in Champaign, Illinois. I went out of curiosity, only know a few atheists. My 16 year old daughter is dating Adam Hitchens, who is related to Christopher. Our family is Christian, specifically Missouri Synod Lutheran. Adam is a wonderful young man, but from my understanding is an atheist as is his father and their well known relatives Christopher and Peter. Adams mom is Christian. My concern for our daughter is that she will not be able to bring Adam to the Christian faith and that if their relationship continues to strengthen, it will have a negative affect on her faith. God warns us about being unequally yoked. I went, in search of better understanding atheism. I found Christopher Hitchens arguments not to have much substance to them. One can not disprove God. I left feeling so sad for him. As polite as he was during the debate, he seemed to have an emptiness about him. I thought Dr. Craig did a marvelous job debating and supporting his points. My plan is to pray for Adam and his family, including Christopher. Thanks again for the summary that you shared. I can share it with others I know that couldn’t attend that are interested in the subject. Sincerely, Diane Ortel

  59. [...] Sense Atheist blog. And some of the best theistic blog coverage and analysis can be found from Doug Geivett (Biola philosopher), Melinda Penner (apologist), MaryJo Sharp (apologist), and the Evangelical [...]

  60. Doug W. Says:

    This is a very helpful recap for those not able to attend. Thank you for so precisely piecing this together. This must have taken a good bit of time to assemble.

  61. Thanks for this!

  62. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hello, Diane. Thank you for sharing these personal connections with the Hitchens family. I understand your concern for your daughter. I trust that she is a confident Christian with a well-grounded faith. Did she see the debate also? -Doug

  63. Dr. Geivett,
    Thanks for such a thorough review of the debate. Having a philosopher comment on the debate is so much more fulfilling than reading the thoughts of an amateur, like myself. Josie and I (and Dietrich) are back from Ukraine this year and were able to enjoy the debate live. What a treat! I’ve linked to your post here:

    http://immediacyisanillusion.blogspot.com/2009/04/from-another-read-better-angle.html

    And my thoughts about Hitchens’ book and about the debate are here, in case you are intersted:

    http://immediacyisanillusion.blogspot.com/2009/04/date-and-debate-night-or-what-kind-of.html

    I trust you are doing well and, if you don’t mind, I’ll stick my head into your office before the semester is out and we can catch up. There’s a lot going on at Kyiv Theological Seminary and I’d love to update you.

  64. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Eric,

    It’s great hearing from. Let’s set something up for lunch on a day that works for you. Do you have my email addess?

    -Doug

  65. Hi Doug,
    Thanks for the recap. It will be nice to be able to refer others to your perceptive and even-handed summary.

    You mentioned that your preferred formulation of the moral argument differs slightly from Bill’s. Would you mind sharing what it is?

  66. Petros Cordellos Says:

    Even-handed, good for you.

  67. Gina Pastore Says:

    Doug, thank you for this awesome report! When will we see you debating this guy?

  68. Tom Crisp Says:

    Hi Doug,

    Thanks for the terrific summary.

    Tom

  69. [...] the way, if you would like to read other detailed reports on the debate, I recommend Doug Geivett’s Blog and Wintery Knight Blog (this latter gives you a play-by-play account, next best thing to an actual [...]

  70. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Tim,

    There are varieties of moral arguments for theism. One limitation of the argument presented in the debate is that some naturalists agree that there are objective moral “facts” and claim that these are abstract objects, and that their existence does not depend on God’s existence. These abstracta “govern” human behavior from a transcendent perspective; what it is to do the right thing is not socially determined, purely functional, or evolved through natural selection and social contracts. Now, a naturalist may have difficulty explaining the existence of such abstract entities. But they would’nt be committed to the kind of relativism that Christopher Hitchens is stuck with. Hitchens is in no position to answer Bill Craig’s argument in the way I’ve just described. If he had done so, Craig could simply have quoted from Hitchens’s book, establishing gross inconsistency between two conceptions of morality, one in the book and one during the debate. But Hitchens was vulnerable to the argument because of his fundamentally relativist view of ethics.

    I prefer to make two observations about moral experience, either of which provides some evidence for theism. First, it isn’t just that some acts are morally right and others morally wrong, objectively; they are also performed with a sense of responsibility that transcends the value of community or survival. And this sense of responsibility is not caused by abstract moral facts, since abstract objects are causally inert. The existence of moral abstracta may explain what makes an action right or wrong; but their existence won’t explain why moral agents take themselves to be obligated in any deep sense to abide by the dictates of these entities.

    Second, it is odd that there should be morally responsible agents in a world that is in no way causally affected by the existence of abstract moral truths or facts. These agents aren’t caused to exist and to be morally responsible agents by abstract objects. So there is this odd coincidence that there is a realm of abstract moral entities and that these apply to creatures such as ourselves, who have come to exist by utterly naturalistic or material processes. (Greg Ganssle has developed this point more fully than I have. See his excellent book Thinking about God: First Steps in Philosophy—IVP 2004.)

  71. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Gina,

    Who can say? Will Hitchens want another debate like the one he’s recently experienced?

  72. Josh Matlock Says:

    I thought it interesting that Hitchens agreed with Craig on the problem of evil and even went as far as to state that if theists are going to assume a god, then they can’t really complain about what he does. Isn’t it true that most of Hitchens arguments against the God of the Bible are because He disagrees with what that God did and still must do?

  73. My feelings were that Hitchens pulled of a slim victory (yes I am a christian). I say that because I feel that most christians don’t sympathize with the unbelief of the athiest. Vice Versa.

    My feelings were that the two flew over each other never connecting on each others points.

    OVER and OVER to the point Hitch said “I hope I’m not boring anyone” did he hold the position I don’t have to provide evidence that santa clause exists or the tooth fairy. I tend to agree with Hitch on this point the burden of proof is on us (craig). So everytime Craig stated Hitch gave no good reasons for Athiesm – Hitch sat there saying, I don’t have to.
    There is simply no winner here and if I have to score one on this it goes to the atheist because I think EVERY point is not a sound for of PROOF.
    If it was I didn’t see CBS, NBC, ABC or FOX with the biggest newsbread of all time…In other words Hitchens poked holes of doubt in everything Craig presented.

    Craig simply asserts there was a beggining to the universe. All the quantum physics mumbo jumbo did not prove anything to me NOR Hitchens so his point is meaningless to Hitchens.

    On the Moral ground Hitchens simply would not conceed to objective morality in a strict sense of there is a diety. Sam Harris has argued this point before and asks if there is objective morality who has it? Is it Islam? Is it the Vatican? forcing the point to even if there was a objective morality one has to prove their God in order to prove their code of morality is the objective one. I imagine Hitchens knows this being the 4-hoursemen are well articulated between each other.

    NT Wrights point is the strongest I feel presneted but even then for an Atheist it’s beggen the question. They hear that Jews had no reason to believe in a raising messiah and Hitchens (who first misunderstood the point) can simply argue No americans though Jesus would go to south America so Mormonism must be true. While being a Christian I find Wrights point to be very cool, I admit it’s not hard evidecne that a atheist needs.

    Thus my thoughts is that Craig was not as convincing as Hitchens. Mainly because Hitchens does not have to convince there is no God but ONLY show that the points are not Bullet proof. I feel he accomplished this. I love Bill Craig and always will but I want someone like Plantinga or Thomas Talbott to sit with the Four Horsement.

    Aug

  74. [...] debate at Biola University on April 4.  A very interesting thread has developed at Doug Geivett’s blog where Doug is answering questions and comments from believers and [...]

  75. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Josh,

    Hitchens is saying that the God of the Bible is not worthy of worship because of what He commands or allows (for example, what’s often called the “Canaanite genocide,” circumcision of male infants, etc.)

  76. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Auggy,

    I have to disagree with the grounds of your assessment. Here’s why:

    (1) Sympathy for the feelings of unbelievers is well and good. But a debate is, in the nature of the case, concerned with what is true with regard to the question of the debate. And this question was, Does God exist? To get to the truth we rely on evidence. Our feelings are not a reliable guide to the truth.

    (2) Others have said that Craig and Hitchens talked past each other. I don’t believe this. There is no reasonable excuse for Hitchens to have misunderstood the moral argument presented by Craig. He got it wrong at the beginning, and he still had it wrong at the end. I explain this in my post. This is especially egregious from a debate standpoint since Hitchens had every opportunity to prepare for the debate by reviewing Craig’s use of the moral argument dozens of times in recorded debates and written publications. A debater may obfuscate, use subterfuge, deliberately and stubbornly distort in response to his opponent’s argument. This may confuse some audiences and make some people think the debaters have talked past each other. Not so in this case. If that were so, you could call it a draw at the end of any debate if one debater simply drops every argument by his opponent, because it could be claimed that they were talking past each other.

    (3) If, as you say, Hitchens bore no burden of proof, but simply needed to rebut Craig’s arguments, Hitchens still fell short. He was weak in his responses to the first two arguments, he distorted (whether naively or deliberately) arguments three and four, and he failed to understand Craig’s fifth point about experience. So even if rebutting is all Hitchens needed to do, given the kind of a-theist he is, he dropped the ball because he dropped the arguments. That alone is enough to measure his degree of success.

    (4) Rebutting was only the least of Hitchens’s responsibilities. He tried valiantly to avoid accepting any burden of proof (though, again, this phrase was never used). But here’s the thing. Craig’s argument for theism follows the pattern of inference to the best explanation. A satisfactory rebuttal of such an argument must show that the theistic explanation is either weaker than an alternative explanation, or is at least counterbalanced by an alternative explanation. That is, even if you believed that the probability of theism was not very great, its explanatory power must be considered in comparison with alternative hypotheses and their power to explain the same phenomena (i.e., the origin of the universe, apparent design, moral facts, and the resurrection of Jesus). Hitchens never even proposed a clear, distinct explanatory hypothesis for all of these things. In point of fact, he clearly is a naturalist (no matter how he defines “atheism” in application to himself). So his challenge would have been to show that Craig’s theistic hypothesis has less explanatory power, all things considered, than Hitchens’s naturalism.

    (5) I expected that Hitchens, because of his wit and media experience, would at least save face, even if he couldn’t match Craig argument-for-argument. That is, Hitchens could ensure that his position might still be regarded as reasonable, though not as well presented and defended as Craig’s. But on further reflection, I believe Hitchens fell short even of this standard. Again, he simply wasn’t prepared as well as he should have been and could have been. In effect, he was beat before he started, because he passed on the easy opportunity to master Craig’s arguments.

    (6) The Santa Claus and tooth fairy analogy is no analogy at all. The reason is simple. No normal cognitively mature person believes in Santa Claus, pixies, or the tooth fairy. But many do believe in God. This is some evidence that there is some evidence for the existence of God. The evidence that believers have may be limited to their private religious experiences, for example. Their experiences might justify their belief in God, even if that could not count as evidence for someone else. But many, including Craig, obviously, believe there is public evidence that any cognitively mature individual can consider. Now Hitchens wants to say that the absence of evidence in the case of God’s existence is strictly analogous to the absence of evidence for Santa Claus, etc. This is ludicrous. Surely there is some evidence for theism. But if that’s the case, then this evidence needs to be counterbalanced or overturned by stronger evidence for a competing hypothesis. I would say that Hitchens’s scientism, his faith in science and determination to resist the task of explaining the origin of the universe, is more closely analogous to believing in fairies. And his failure to answer the arguments of the debate belies his claim that there is no evidence for theism.

    (7) The quantum physics stuff is not mumbo jumbo. Yes, it takes special training for physicists to reach the conclusions they do; but cosmologists take reasonable positions and share them with the public. And with respect to the history of the universe, the dominant theory (accepted even by most atheists) is that the universe had a beginning. Hitchens, you’ll notice, did not dispute this.

    (8) With respect to the objectivity of morality, the question is not what is the full content of morality, or how are moral truths known, or who is in a better position to know moral truths. Craig’s point is much simpler than that. His question is, if there are such things as objective moral truths or facts, how do you account for their existence (whatever they happen to be and however they happen to be known). It seems to me that you’ve listened more carefully to Hitchens and accepted his distortion of the argument; better to listen carefully to the proponent of the argument so you understand it correctly and can then recognize what kind of response is needed from the opponent.

    (9) I’m afraid I don’t follow the comparison you make between ancient Jewish belief about resurrection and the stuff about Jesus, South America and Mormonism.

    (10) Finally, “bullet proof” arguments are not needed, on either side. It’s simply a question of which hypothesis provides the best (or better) explanation for the same range of facts. This was Craig’s claim about method, and Hitchens did not dispute it.

  77. John :) Says:

    Hi Doug,

    I think Auggy’d point about the claim (by Mormons) that Jesus went to South America is this:

    1. N T Wright said that one reason why the idea of Jesus’ resurrection is unlikely to be a frictional invention thought the earliest Christians (who were Jews) because these early Jewish Christians did not have any previous tradition about one person being resurrected ahead of the rest of humanity to draw from. Their tradition was that all would be resurrected in the same time, not one person much ahead of others, and certainly nothing about a Messiah being able to be defeated and killed by pagan enemies, and nothing about a Messiah resurrecting. Even if they had thought of such an idea of resurrection, they would find it stupid to sell such an idea for it would make themselves unbelievable to others. So when these earliest Jewish Christians proclaimed that, it must be because they sincerely believed in it due to them having an actual experience (which they sincerely understood it to be Jesus’ resurrection) and not because they invented it.

    2. Now, the above argument can also be used by Mormons to argued for their claim that Jesus went to South America. Such an idea was not in existence before. Such an idea is absurd. It would make Mormons unbelievable. But Mormons still proclaimed that. Therefore (by the argument in point 1 above) the Mormons must have an actual experience (which they sincerely understood it to be their encounter with Jesus’ appearance in South America) and not because the earliest Mormon(s) invented it.

    [as an aside: Wright's above argument may no longer be strictly true because of the relatively recent the discovery of a stone with ancient inscriptions may point to the existence of an pre-Jesus Jewish idea of a Messiah being killed and then resurrected ahead of the general resurrection - though the evidence is not conclusive yet at this point in time because the inscriptions was not clear at the crucial part . One may refer to Ben Witherington's blog for some info on this stone]

  78. Dear Doug,
    Thank you so much for the detailed and very informative summary of the debate. The discussion is also quite stimulating. I have not been a big fan of blogs due to the lack of civility and serious, logical engagement with important issues, but yours sets an impressive standard.

    You mention that you would state the moral argument differently from the way Craig did. You may have already explained what you meant (I’m not done reading through the threads), but if you haven’t, would you please explain briefly what an alternative form of the argument would look like?

    On a personal note: I found out you were on sabbatical last semester and so you did not get my request for a letter of reference in time. I got accepted to the PhD program at UGA (philosophy) and will be starting in the fall. Thank you for your ministry.

    John.

  79. I have not been able to listen to the debate yet, but I am familiar with both gentleman’s points.

    “The Santa Claus and tooth fairy analogy is no analogy at all. The reason is simple. No normal cognitively mature person believes in Santa Claus, pixies, or the tooth fairy. But many do believe in God. This is some evidence that there is some evidence for the existence of God”

    And lots of “normal cognitively mature” people believe in things like astrology, superstition, and witchcraft. Yet that is not evidence that any of those things are true.

    “The evidence that believers have may be limited to their private religious experiences, for example. Their experiences might justify their belief in God, even if that could not count as evidence for someone else. But many, including Craig, obviously, believe there is public evidence that any cognitively mature individual can consider. ”

    Public evidence? I think I know what you mean, but what is the best example of the “public evidence” that a god exists?

    “Now Hitchens wants to say that the absence of evidence in the case of God’s existence is strictly analogous to the absence of evidence for Santa Claus, etc. This is ludicrous. Surely there is some evidence for theism.”

    Surely there is evidence that there are people that believe in only one god. But what is the best evidence for the existence of a god? That was the point of the analogy.

    “But if that’s the case, then this evidence needs to be counterbalanced or overturned by stronger evidence for a competing hypothesis. I would say that Hitchens’s scientism, his faith in science and determination to resist the task of explaining the origin of the universe, is more closely analogous to believing in fairies. And his failure to answer the arguments of the debate belies his claim that there is no evidence for theism.”

    Currently there is not any scientific evidence supporting a model for the origin of our universe. What Hitchen’s is doing is gambling that if anyone finds any such evidence, it is most probable that it will be discovered in a laboratory rather than a church. He believes this because science has a good track record of figuring things out about the world and the universe, more so than any other discipline. No faith required.

  80. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi John :)

    OK. But NT Wright’s point is one among many that include historical facts concerning the historical Jesus before his crucifixion, as well as the resurrection and its aftermath. To appreciate the significance of the point in question, the total evidence is relevant. And speaking for myself, that would include larger worldview matters, like the existence and nature of God. The Mormon concept of God is fundamentally different. Now I’ve just introduced another component into the larger debate about God’s existence, which is I’m not free to expound just now because I’m trying to keep this brief. Finally, if it happened that the Mormon claim was equally compelling on the evidence, then this would do nothing to undermine the case for supernaturalism by appealing to the resurrection. After all, the Mormon testimony isn’t in conflict with the actual occurrence with the belief that Jesus rose bodily from the dead, as argued.

  81. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi John Njoroge,

    It’s makes me very happy to hear of your plans to join the PhD program at UGA. Congratulations! You’ll have to tell me more about it.

    Thanks for your supportive comments about this post and the comments thread. So far, I’ve approved all the comments that have been submitted, which speaks to the quality of the commentators who all have been very civil, as well!

    I got the same question about the moral argument earlier, and if go scroll through the threads you should find my reply with a brief sketch of what I was referring to.

    -Doug

  82. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Jake,

    I’m out the door right now, so I’ll have to respond later. But I wanted your comment posted right away so others can ponder what you say, and perhaps chime in with agreement or replies of their own.

    -Doug

  83. Very nice post, thanks man!

  84. Hey Doug,

    I really appreciate your summary. I wish I could have seen the debate in person. I have seen Hitchens before and it seems he relies on his rhetorical skill rather than careful argumentation. It also seems like were he to concede that there is a god, although a god like Spinoza’s conception, or maybe Aristotle’s, he could launch his arguments against the Christian conception and they would have more force. I don’t know why more opponents to Christian Theism don’t take this line. I think they could do this and still keep the stylish title of being a New Atheist (of course, there wouldn’t be anything new about this).

    Yours,
    Alex

  85. Doug Geivett Says:

    OK, Jake, I have a few minutes now to review your comments earlier today.

    (1) I’m not saying that if a normal cognitively mature person believes something, that is evidence that what they believe is true. I’m saying that it’s evidence that there is some evidence they have for believing that it’s true. This is a basic epistemological principle that I happen to accept.

    (2) By public evidence I mean evidence that can be examined and evaluated in the same more-or-less direct way available to most or many parties to a debate or discussion. It is contrasted with private evidence that an individual may have as a result of private experience (which all direct experience is).

    (3) Yes, Hitchens asserted that there is no more evidence for the existence of God than for the existence of Santa Claus. And this is absurd. You ask what is the best evidence for the existence of God. The best case for the existence of God is a cumulative case organized in the pattern of inference to best explanation of a whole array of phenomena, some of which the atheist will agree do exist and should be explained, some of which the atheist may believe do exist but need not be explained, some of which the atheist may believe do exist but cannot be explained, and some of which the atheist may deny. One of the limitations of debate, and really of any finitely long discussion of the topic, is that a total case on either side cannot be presented in full. This is not to say that debate is without merit. It can single out especially salient points most worthy of consideration, as judged by both sides in the debate. As for one particular argument (or general category of argument), I believe the most auspicious place to begin is with the question, Why is there something rather than nothing? This is a perennial question of philosopher and not an idiosyncracy of theistic argument. There are kinds of cosmological argument that infer the existence of God in answer to this question. William Craig deployed one such argument in his debate with Hitchens.

    (4) I think you’re mistaken about scientific evidence for a particular model concerning the origin of the universe. But that is a point you should take up with the cosmologists who develop models, and sample the consensus and their reasons for preferring one model over another. That is the point, after all; models are epistemically attractive or not in relation to the evidence that pertains to each and in comparison with one another. The Big Bang cosmology is currently (and for some time has been) the favored model. There are good reasons for this. Again, the physicists can tell you why. Anyone who takes science seriously must reckon with this fact about the state of research. Atheists like Hitchens, who are scientific naturalists, should not be coy about this.

    As for the gamble that a scientific answer to the question how the universe began to exist ex nihilo, that is indeed a gamble. But it is hardly warranted by the principles of scientific explanation, and entirely unrealistic about what it would take to explain such a thing. Most naturalists who believe that the universe began to exist take this to be an inexplicable brute fact. Perhaps the gamble is that scientists will discover that the universe did not begin to exist. That’s unlikely for philosophical reasons, as well as empirical reasons. And in the meantime our beliefs should be, as David Hume insisted, proportionate to the evidence. At the moment that means believing that the universe began to exist a finite time ago.

    Science has a good track record for figuring certain kinds of things out. This restriction on the actual successes achieved by science is overlooked by many who complain about a so-called “God-of-the-gaps” argument. It is possible to work out, consistent with the principles of responsible scientific practice, problems that are likely beyond purely scientific explanation (if that means explanation strictly in terms of the laws of nature). Here are a few examples: the origin of the universe, the existence of living organisms, the reality of human consciousness, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Now you may say that Jesus did not rise from the dead. My point is simply this: if Jesus did rise from the dead, science is not the place to look for an explanation. David Hume knew that, and so do most modernists who declaim against the resurrection. This is itself evidence that they believe that a resurrection, if it happened, is best explained supernaturally.

    By the way, as far as Hitchens’s own atheist position and style of argument are concerned, it is possible that God exists. And thus it is possible that Jesus rose from the dead. So Hitchens, in this respect, has no real basis for precluding supernatural explanation for phenomena that require it, if those phenomena occur.

  86. Alyssa Iwata Says:

    I wanted to thank you for your assessment of the debate, especially Hitchens’ side of things, because I found it difficult to flow his speeches. As someone with a background in debate, I was extremely frustrated by Hitchens’ argumentation, or, really, lack thereof. There were times he deviated so much that I was almost tempted to give up taking notes altogether. I’m looking forward to hearing more of what you have to say in The New Atheism class tonight.

    To me, the strangest thing about the debate was how stereotypes of religion and science were turned on their heads. The theist came across as the voice of reason and evidence, and the atheist seemed happy to believe whatever he wanted even if it wasn’t consistent with reality or his worldview. My roommate watched the atheist group in attendance (in their matching t-shirts) during the debate and she noticed that none of them paid attention while Dr. Craig spoke, but as soon as Hitchens took the stage, they all leaned forward in their seats with their mouths open, hanging on his every word, as if he were some kind of spiritual leader.

    I hope this debate encouraged both Christians and atheists to think more critically about what they believe.

  87. Doug,
    Thank you for responding; very nice of you to take time to blog with people and actually tend your blog : )

    I did not mean sympathize in the sense of emotion but rather that when a Christian realizes that the atheist TRULY FULLY believes with pre-suppositions that God does not exist then they would reazlize that evidence is near impossible outside of directe proof (God pouring fire down from the skies).

    I’m still not convinced that Hitchens is wrong on the santa clause point. It hardly seems that if anyone debated the existence of SC that the negative would have to search the earth looking for santa in order to prove his point. The point Hitch and every atheist makes is that the burden of proof is on the affirmative and this is why I say they are flying by with no real connection. The theist on the other hand is doing the EXACT same thing. Craig wants Hitchens to give good reasons to prove athiesm is true. But Hitchens is not so much saying Athiesm is true but moreso that Since Theism is false then Atheism is true. Both are coming with pre-suppositions. To illustrate my point…

    Hitch asks: Name a moral actaion a unbelliever cannot do.

    Craig says: (IF GOD EXISTS) tithing and loving God.

    Craig is not understanding the force and position of Hitchens. First off.
    1) Hitch does not ask what a unbeliever WOULD not do but CANNOT do.
    2) Hitch will dispute that tithing (even if God exists) might not be a moral action
    3) unbelievers CAN tithe

    Not the Loving God would be more difficult but again they are flying by with no connection…

    Hitch will contend “loving God” on the premise that there is no God so the moral action of loving god is not positively moral. In fact he and Harris argue that it is immoral since it is delusional and people should live in the real world.

    To be fair to N.T. Wright, I believe the point was that they did believe in a dying and ressurecting messiah yet this amazing turn of events occured. Hitch could object still and use the Mormons as an example that: writing a new bible was something american churches did not permit and thus since the mormons wrote their own bible AND had such a turn of events and a following then it must be true.

    My point about Craigs points is that Hitch simply does not believe anyone has experienced God in a true sense but only in a wishful thinking sense and so no matter what angle “experiencing God” is presented Hitch simply does not find that as evidence.

    I’m no pysicist but I would be willing to invest stocks in the fact that they don’t have the beginning of the universe down. Now theres a chance I lose my house on that but I have a hard time believing when Craig was calling out all those numbers…
    10 to the 300,000 multiplied by 400,000 to the 5,000,000 power
    means NOTHING to hitch or any atheist because the numbers are just thrown out there.
    Craig using these numbers seems to me to be weak not because they’re not true but because it’s a hard case to prove they are to laymen like us. Since I have no way of knowing if those numbers are accurate AND I have a good feeling other scientists sitting there would have different numbers I simply don’t find ANY of the teleological arguments (spelling) persuasive at all.

    Now if you are pulling for Craig then yea, you’ll except the numbers as facts and say WOW! THAT IS MY POINT OF NOT CONNECTING.

    If you are pulling for Hitch then the numbers are a mass of comedy that are not verified except by some guy named “bla bla bla” who most of us never heard of.

    I think most people think Craig won because they wanted him to win. However I would like to have seen Craig really wrestle with the proofs rather than throwing “Jesus rose from the dead”. Criag SHOULD already know Hitchens is not going to have to do ANYTHING to leave doubt in objective listeners on ANY of the 3 points of Jesus’ ressurection. Wrights seemed to be the only one that had some value to the argument but the others (I’ll have to go back on my notes) did not move me but left me thinking HE DOES NOT BELIEVE JESUS EXISTED. Craig should have made a MUCH better case for this and DUMP the experiential argument.

    Sorry so long and thanks again Doug,

    Aug

  88. This post has been linked for the HOT5 Daily 4/9/2009, at The Unreligious Right

  89. Hi Doug

    I will be interested in Denton’s next book, if he is still working in NZ let me know I am connected with a network of Theologians and Scientists who run conferences and seminars on the interface between theology and science and am sure he could contribute something.

    On a slightly tangential note, Hitchens’s tends to appeal to what I call the historical atrocities argument: the claim that people who believed in God committed atrocities in his name. Now this is a bad argument, Kretzman addressed it thoroughly in his theologically unfashionable Philosophy some years ago. And as an argument against the existence of God this is either a weak version of the problem of evil, or it is as Craig points out irrelevant, the issue is whether the beliefs of theists are true not whether they have been used with other premises to justify immoral acts.

    Craig is also correct that the premises of this argument are inconsistent with the denial of objective moral obligations. After all the people who did this lived in a different time or culture to us and if Hitchens’s is correct their own religious beliefs justified their actions and hence on a relativist account their actions were justified.

    One thing that bothers me though is that while these points are correct and they need to be made in a debate on the existence of God to avoid the discussion getting side tracked on side issues. The end result is that Hitchens’s still gets to claim religion has these ill effects.

    What would interest me would be a dialogue between someone like Rodney Stark and Hitchens not on the topic of “does God exist” but on the topic of whether religions effects on culture are negative or positive. This would allow a sociologist of religion who studies the effects of religion on culture to asses Hitchens’s charge directly.

    It would also be interesting to see Hitchens’s arguments assessed in a context where a person asks the comparative question of what the effects of movements such religious scepticism and Darwinism have had on culture and look at such things as Marxism, Social Darwinism etc. Or to see Hitchens’s claim about the history of religion and science addressed by someone like Ronald Numbers or Edward Grant. These issues can’t be pursued in an argument about the existence of God but they are important issues that need to be addressed and debated in any thorough response to the new atheists.

  90. Hi Doug

    Sorry about the last post

    For some reason my account is putting my wifes photo up next to my name.

  91. man sorry for the poor writing! I re-read my post and see how I’m moving point to point while being very confusing. Sorry everyone.

  92. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Alyssa,

    Thanks for dropping in. It’s reassuring to know that others with some knowledge of debate practice had trouble flowing the debate because of Hitchens’s debate style. In retrospect, studying my notes, I believe it is possible to construct the flow. I posted photos of my debate notes on Blackboard for my class. With some time off in the days ahead, I may have the opportunity to work on this.

    I didn’t see any of the atheists who came together in matching t-shirts because they were in another part of the audience. I believe the master of ceremonies said they were from the Orange County Atheists group. There are fanatical ideologues of all types. Some are fanatical atheists. Listening to the other side doesn’t come naturally for them. Sometimes they assume they already understand the arguments from the other side and have already seen that they are unsound. The problem with that is that they may be mistaken about what arguments are being presented if they aren’t listening closely. This can happen even with one’s debate opponent. Hitchens repeatedly misrepresented Craig’s moral argument, for example. It was as if he heard “moral argument” and immediately associated it with some conception of a moral argument he already knew of and was ready to address. Unfortunately, he never got it right, and so he kept addressing an argument that Craig was not making. And this is tantamount to dropping the argument that Craig was making.

    I’m confident there were people at the debate who did find it helpful and left with much to ponder in the warm afterglow of an engaging experience.

  93. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Alex!

    I see your point, and I think you might be right about its potential to be a game changer. For the others visiting this post and reading the comments, it might be helpful if you said briefly what a Spinozist or Aristotelian conception of god is (if you have time).

    -Doug

  94. Doug, thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions.

    In response to your point #1:

    But is it evidence for “public evidence” that what they believe is true? Would you go so far as to say “yes, it always is?” If not, then why do you not say that it is “evidence that there may be evidence” that the belief is true? I would agree with that.

    In response to your point #3:

    So what is the evidence-supported answer to “why is there something rather than nothing?” Is the evidence supporting your answer “public evidence?”

    In response to your point #4:

    Craig employs a very common misinterpretation of Big Bang Theory, which is unfortunate given the copious amount of literature available about it. Simply put, BBT has nothing to say about the origin of the universe and does not attempt to describe it. As I said, as of right now there is not any scientific evidence related to the origin of the universe, let alone a theory.

    Hitchen’s basis for precluding any supernatural explanation, for anything, is rooted in probabilities. Compare how often the supernatural explanation has better explained a phenomenon, thereby proving the scientific explanation to be incorrect, to how often the scientific explanation has better explained a phenomenon, thereby proving the supernatural explanation incorrect.

  95. Re: your response to Jake, you said

    “(1) I’m not saying that if a normal cognitively mature person believes something, that is evidence that what they believe is true. I’m saying that it’s evidence that there is some evidence they have for believing that it’s true. This is a basic epistemological principle that I happen to accept.”

    This overlooks the well established fact that people commonly misinterpret personal experiences, and wrongfully attribute those experiences to supernatural causes (e.g. thinking prayers can help one win the lottery, the “miraculously” works of Peter Popoff, etc.).

    Your statement asserting that it is “evidence that there is some evidence they have for believing” is contrary to what we know about human perception and belief… There are REASONS many people believe something is true, but to presume those reasons for belief are evidence of truth is tantamount to saying “well, some of those believers must believe for REAL reasons, right?” Apply your statement to arguments for the existence of the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, and the Chupacabra and hopefully you see what I mean.

    This also applies to your distinction between public and private evidence. With “private evidence,” by your definition, it is impossible to separate the facts of an experience from someone’s personal perception of that experience. I think Jake was spot on with his first two comments, especially given the lack of evidence for the existence of any god, let alone any one particular god.

  96. Talon Ferguson Says:

    I love and hate how christians try to attack ‘atheistic belief’, as though it were a belief, or some kind of system or philosophy.

    An Atheist does not believe in supernatural beings or gods.

    That’s it. That’s all. There’s no more to it…

    I’m a deist.. & I believe what the evidence, and my intuition tell me to be true. Which is that the Bible is man-made. I came to that conclusion by reading it, and talking to pastors, who would not refute the wide-spread damnation of whole peoples whom never heard of or opened a bible. I stopped believing on moral, not evidentiary grounds. The book is unjust, simple, and often barbaric and hateful. It’s not the work of a ‘god’, even if I believe one could exist.

  97. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi David (UNRR),

    I’m pleased that you selected this post to be linked at your site, the HOTS Daily. Having read your site bio, I see that we’re kindred spirits with regard to civil discourse about the things that matter most. Press on!

    -Doug

  98. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Matt (?),

    In my recent email to Mike Denton, I asked if he’s at Otago still. I’ve yet to hear back. But he had said he was travelling internationally and that access to the internet is sporadic for the time being. I’ll let him know of your interest in discussing conference participation with him.

    “The Historical Atrocities Argument.” That’s a great label for what it stands for in your comment. How would you cast the argument with numbered premises and the sort of conclusion reached by Hitchens? Putting arguments in explicit form makes it much easier to keep track of what is being argued and what it would take to reply.

    I agree that some public discussion between Hitchens and someone like Rodney Stark would be valuable. Stark has written quite a lot on related themes, so it might be possible to construct an argument of your own based on premises informed by his data.

    I believe that neo-atheists are opportunists in that they have exploited an opportunity to be heard, an opportunity created by violence, motivated by radical Islam, that we’ve all witnessed in recent years. But for the 9/11 incidents, I question whether this brand of atheism would have gained the traction it has. Knowing that there is no parallel between orthodox Christianity as exhibited today and the current wave of Islamic injustice, the neo-atheists have had to reach back in time to events that have tainted Christian history—the Crusades, the Inquisition, and so forth. But it’s a mistake to associate evangelical Christian belief today, for example, with the “officially recognized,” state-sanctioned church of past eras. It has to be asked whether there was a Church, faithful to the morality of the New Testament, seeking justice and helping the oppressed during those conflicts. Historians should investigate the degree to which the thread of Christian belief and practice can be traced continuously from the beginning of the Church to the present time. (I’m not suggesting this hasn’t been done.) It’s reported in the New Testament that Jesus warned, “Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter his kingdom,” a kingdom that is not of this world.

    Neo-atheism is very much motivated by the perception that religion is bad for culture. Preoccupation with such a claim does tend to get in the way of seeing the point of believing what’s true on the basis of the best evidence there is. The best antidote to the worst problems associated with “religion” is a community of believers who are genuine disciples of Jesus Christ.

  99. Doug Geivett Says:

    So it is Matt. That’s good to know! Technology does let us down, at times. Just be thankful it was your wife’s pic that showed up and not someone else’s! -Doug

  100. Doug Geivett Says:

    Jake, here’s my response regarding #3 and #4. It may be due to sleep deprivation on my end, but I’m not understanding your comment on #1.

    (3) The evidence-supported answer to the question, “Why is there something rather than nothing?” includes empirical evidence that the universe began to exist (Big Bang cosmology), the philosophical problem of an infinite regress of past events constituting the history of the universe, the fine-tuning of the universe, the reality and character of human consciousness, human moral responsibility, and so on. Some of this evidence—namely, the evidence that the universe began to exist—is evidence that the origin of the universe is either uncaused (some naturalists here introduce the notion of a “brute fact”), or the beginning of the universe was caused and that cause was, in the nature of the case, supernatural. Other evidence (e.g., fine-tuning, human consciousness, human moral responsibility) is evidence that whatever supernatural cause explains the origin of the universe, this cause acted purposefully, and toward ends that we can to some degree discern. The full import of this evidence is better appreciated if considered against the background evidence that the universe began to exist. The evidences I’ve mentioned in this comment are public in the sense I described in an earlier comment on this post; “public” contrasts with “private.”

    If the original question leading to this line of investigation and inference is “Why is there something rather than nothing?” the evidence I’ve mentioned answers in two stages: first, the something to which our question refers has not always existed; second, this same something was supernaturally caused to exist in an apparently purposeful way.

    There’s an ambiguity in the question “Why is there something rather than nothing?” The force of the question may be “How does it come to be that there is something rather than nothing?” Or, the force of the question may be “For what purpose is there something rather than nothing?” The way I’ve just sketched for organizing some main lines of evidence speak to both questions.

    Also, the first sense of the question (“Why is there something rather than nothing?”) may be further nuanced as a “why-question” in the sense that “why-questions” have in explanation theory. These why-questions are questions in search of a causal explanation, and, indeed, the best causal explanation so far available. I describe this notion of a why-question more fully in my chapter for the book Does God Exist? The Craig-Flew Debate.

    (4) Maybe you could clarify what you mean when you say that Big Bang cosmology “has nothing to say about the origin of the universe and does not attempt to describe it.” That sounds plainly false. But if you mean that Big Bang cosmology takes our scientific understanding of the universe back to an absolute beginning without explaining how it began, then of course I agree.

    As for the unnumbered new point about Hitchens conception of probabilities, it has to be said that in the debate Hitchens did not compare the supernatural explanation for the phenomena introduced by Craig with some scientific explanation of the same phenomena. Worse, Hitchens did not even describe a scientific explanation for any of the phenomena introduced by Craig: the origin of the universe, the fine-tuning of the universe, the objectivity of moral facts, and the resurrection of Jesus. I agree that this is what he ought to have done. Even on the assumption that a Hitchens-styled atheist need not, in general, argue that God does not exist and can rely entirely on presenting defeaters for arguments for theism, defeaters must have the right form given the character of the arguments in question. In this case, the arguments follow the pattern of inference to the best explanation. So a defeater must show that the theistic explanation for the phenomena is not the best. And to do that the Hitchens-styled atheist must either deny that an explanation is needed (for one reason or another), or present an alternative explanation and demonstrate its superiority as an explanation. Hitchens did not do either of these things. And yet he did say explicitly (a) that a supernatural hypothesis does not explain anything, and (b) that existing non-supernatural explanations are adequate to explain the phenomena introduced by Craig.

    (Naturalists have taken one of two paths when denying the need for a “best explanation” for some phenomenon: (a) claim that the phenomenon is simply a brute fact that has no explanation, or (b) assert that the alleged phenomenon is not in fact a phenomenon at all, such that there is nothing for which an explanation might be sought. To illustrate, naturalists have often taken path (a) when called upon to explain the origin of the universe or the objectivity of morality, and path (b) when called upon to explain the resurrection of Jesus.)

  101. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi PJ,

    Thanks for visiting this post.

    My point, which you quote, does not overlook the fact that beliefs based on experience are fallible. That fact is too obvious. But the point does acknowledge that experience often is evidence for a belief some subject has acquired on the basis of an experience. Three points of clarification.

    First, a belief does not have to be true for it to be justified. This is true in general, and it applies to beliefs grounded in experience. Some person may have an experience which for that person is evidence that some proposition is true, even if most of the rest of us would be skeptical, if not bemused.

    Second, there is an epistemological principle called the principle of credulity. This principle holds that when some person has an experience that indicates a certain proposition is true, then that person is justified in believing that proposition, unless there is some special, independent reason why that proposition should not be believed by that person. For example, if you seem to see a broom in the corner of the room, you would be justified in believing that there is a broom in the corner of the room, even though you may be hallucinating. But suppose there are several other trustworthy people in the room who say there is no broom. Now you have a defeater for your initial evidence. Suppose, further, that you come to learn eventually that you’ve been hallucinating under certain conditions. In retrospect, you realize that these conditions were satisfied (or present) back when you thought you saw a broom. That is additional evidence that your belief then was false, so that now you would not be justified in continuing to believe that there was a broom in the corner of the room on that occasion.

    Third, my point is that if cognitively mature people whom I know believe some proposition that I do not, and this proposition is existentially significant, then it behooves me to inquire into the evidence they believe they have, because their believing the proposition is evidence I have that their belief is supported for them by evidence they have. This is not equivalent to saying that this evidence I have constitutes for me evidence that what they believe is true.

    What you say, PJ, about the value of private evidence deriving from personal experience has unfortunate consequences for all perceptual experience. You’re saying that the subjectivity of experience is such that it cannot provide evidence for anything. Imagine the consequences this would have for the very possibility of doing science!

  102. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Talon,

    Thanks for jumping into the discussion. There are varieties of atheists. Some do deny the existence of God and some who deny the existence of God also argue that God does not exist, as well they should. I guess people are free to stipulate a definition of their own for any word they fancy. The term “atheist” has a long history, even an ancient history, of meaning “someone who believes that God, or a god does not exist.” So the relatively recent phenomenon of mandating a new sense of this word is understandably confusing. This is not necessarily the fault of those who are confused. And anyone who wants to be understood differently in his or her use of the term customarily used for denying that God exists needs (a) to take responsibility for whatever confusion he or she causes on this point, and (b) do something to assure others that they are not simply trying to circumvent exposure of their actual worldview through deliberately misleading or deceptive verbiage (I’ve heard this called “bullshitting”).

    By the way, some skeptics who deny that they deny that God exists unwittingly argue that God does not exist. I’ve noticed this in some of the debates I’ve done.

    I understand your preference for “deism” over “theism,” and it sounds to me that you use the term “deism” in a historically accurate sense. But I believe that there is a variety of theism that may easily be confused with deism. I call this form of theism “brute theism”; it holds that God exists, is not necessarily indifferent about the human condition, may cause miracles to occur, but is skeptical about special revelation from God in the form of written scriptures.

  103. (Hopefully my wife’s picture will not show up this time; I have tried something different to bypass the problem.)

    Thanks for that, my email address is available on my site if Mike Denton would like to get in touch directly.

    I am thinking on how to formulate Hitchens argument in the most charitable light possible. It seems to me there are many apparent ambiguities in the claim that religion causes harm. I will give it some thought.

  104. Thanks for the speedy reply Doug :)

    I think there is a little confusion of terms here, so let me clarify – I took “evidence” to mean “scientific evidence,” in this case consistent with the existence of God and inconsistent with other natural explanations of one’s (perceived) experience. In this sense, evidence for the existence of God (which some would require to have a belief in God) is to be taken as distinct from someone’s perception of an experience that in their mind supports their belief in God.

    I should have specified this distinction in my original post, as I am well aware how many words have different meanings in science, philosophy and religion/theology! :)

    Just to point out what evidence means to a skeptic, here’s an example of where you use evidence in what I see as two different ways. You said “…their believing the proposition is evidence I have that their belief is supported for them by evidence they have.” The first use of the word in this sentence is consistent with the notion of scientific evidence, however the latter is not. One needs more than someone else beliefs to call the reasons for those beliefs “evidence” in the scientific sense of the word, unless you make the blanket assumption that everyone always makes evidence-based decisions in forming their beliefs. I think “reasons” is a more precise word than “evidence” in this example.

    Christian apologists like Craig assert (or at the very least suggest) that we can find EVIDENCE for the existence of God in the natural world – so this distinction in meaning is critically important – especially given the lack of any credible scientific evidence of any supernatural phenomena even after centuries of searching. This doesn’t mean there is no God, and it doesn’t mean one can’t have faith in God – it just means there isn’t scientific evidence to support the belief. That said, religious leaders set themselves up for trouble when they make assertions about the natural world that simply don’t hold up to empirical evidence – it’s bad for religion and bad for our understanding of the natural world (science).

    Last comment then I’ll leave you with the final word, if you wish.

    Your interpretation of my comment as saying that “subjectivity of experience is such that it cannot provide evidence for anything” and then going on to say “Imagine the consequences this would have for the very possibility of doing science!” is way too black and white, and I think you know it’s not at all the essence of my comment.

    To the contrary, science shuns anecdotes as empirical evidence, and it clearly recognizes the problem of human perception! This is in large part why science demands well designed, repeatable experiments using the most objective methods available.

    Thanks for your time,
    -PJ

  105. Doug Geivett Says:

    Matt, we’ll be standing by. I’ll do what I can to get you introduced to Mike Denton. -Doug

  106. Doug Geivett Says:

    PJ, thanks. You’ve kept me busy.

    As an evidentialist in general epistemology, I regard evidence as much more inclusive than you do. It should not be limited to what you mean by scientific evidence. We need more than scientific evidence to place any trust at all in the practice and methods of science. The most basic evidence we have comes through direct experience or acquaintance with objects or truths. (So I’m also a foundationalist.)

    I don’t think you’ve clarified enough quite yet what you mean by scientific evidence. Given what you’ve said in your comments about this, I see no reason for denying that the evidence I wrote about in my previous comment is empirical evidence, delivered by means of scientific investigation, and is evidence for supernaturalism.

    It’s one thing to acknowledge the problems of perception and in that sense take them seriously. But you made a completely generalizable claim about the evidential value of experience given its essential subjectivity. How does your view of sensory experience solve this problem?

  107. Dr. Craig is unbelievable, he is truly someone i look up to and admire.

  108. Hi Doug

    My thoughts are a bit speculative but for what its worth here they are.

    Wolterstorff wrote an article called the “migration of theistic arguments” some time ago. In it he argued that the evidentialist objection to belief in God arose in Locke and was motivated in part by the fact that Locke feared that people who believed without evidence were dangerous. Locke worried they had totalitarian tendencies and threatened peoples freedom and dignity. Locke was a theist but it struck me this was a common thread in many atheistic arguments. Its evident in Marx on the left and Ayn Rand on the right. Ernest Nagel makes the point explicitly in “Defense of Atheism” (Reality in Focus, ed Moser (1990)) he writes “atheism historically has been and continues to be, a form of social and political protest directed as much against institutionalized religion as against theistic doctrine” Nagel then goes on to claim that religious leaders have supported injustice, opposed reform, repressed free inquiry etc etc. He concludes “the refutation of theism has seemed to many as an indispensable step not only towards liberating mens minds from superstition, but also towards achieving a more equitable society”

    I think an analogy can help illustrate this, consider how you or I view the ideology of the Nazi’s. We view the ideology as false. But we also view it as dangerous and oppressive. Our desire to shows its falsity is strongly linked to our belief it is oppressive. Moreover, one reason we think its oppressive is because of the atrocities that the Nazis committed which are documented by history.

    This is how I think the argument works for the neo-atheists. They hold two separate theses which often mistakenly conflate (a) Theism is false and (b) Theistic belief systems are oppressive (in a manner analogous to the way that we would say nazism or the ideology of the KKK are oppressive). Now (b) is supported by what I call the ‘historic atrocities’ argument. Basically its an inductive argument. Which goes something like this

    (1)Historically theistic belief systems have supported atrocities

    From this it argued ( via induction),

    (2) thiestic belief systems are opressive.

    Now how I would use Stark to respond to this is roughly as follows. I think that [1] is often based on kind of meta-narrative: The story goes like this, prior to the rise of Christianity was the “classical period” where science and reason flourished among the ancient greek thinkers. This learning was extinguished by the rise of Christianity, which hated reason and science in favour of a supersitious faith. This brought about a period called the ‘dark ages’ where all progress and science were suppressed. Heretic and dissenters executed and women burnt as witches by the millions. It was taught as fact that the world was flat and columbus was persecuted for believing otherwise. Gallileo and Copernicus changed this, they challenged the claim that the earth was the centre of the universe challenging the churches claim to be the centre of the world and were, like most early scientists, persecuted for doing so. As a result of their efforts. people began following reason again and as a result liberated themselves from the shackles of dark age superstitions most notably Christianity. It was this liberation from religious supersition that brought about the rise of science, a rise contested unsucessfully by the Church, and which resulted in the enlightenment where secularism prevailed. Such things as liberty and freedom come from the enlightenment, not from Christianity, which opposed it.

    This view is culturally dominant in movies media etc. Stark is great because his work compiles and brings together the large number of contemporary historians who have challenged almost every part of this narrative. He notes that its questionable there was a dark ages, he puts the persecutions and Inquisitions in an interesting context suggesting that they only occurred in certain identifiable cultural contexts (interestingly some authors like Kamen and Edwards have challenged much of what passes as common knowledge about the Inquisition, suggesting a large amount is urban legend, Stark notes this sort of research). Stark also makes accessible the work of people like Edward Grant who have largely refuted the caricature of the middle ages this story presents. And Stark points out that recent historiography has challenged the conflict thesis: the claim the church opposed and persecuted science. He also brings together historians who challenge the claims about witchcraft etc. He also notes the religious connections behind many social reforms such as the abolition of slavery. I have a few admittedly sketchy posts along this sort of line on my blog here.

    The problem is that many people are unaware of this research. Most Christians I know actually believe the meta-narrative I sketched above.

    Imagine, you were debating a philosophical claim with me. You offered arguments for the truth of your position. I ignored them and proceeded to denigrate your character accusing you of all manner of things leveling accusation after accusation. You responded by pointing out this committed the ad hominem fallacy and I had not addressed your argument. Two things would happen (a) you would win the debate because your point is correct (b) many in the audience would be left questioning your character. although they might grant the point you were making you never actually addressed the accusations and that would leave people wondering. This is I think is the danger we face when we use Craig to rebut Hitchens but don’t also bring in people like Stark or the numerous historians and Sociologists of religion who can contest the inductive basis of the historical atrocities argument.

  109. Doug, does the word evidentialism best describe your type of apologetics then? I think apologists mostly wrangle with words on this as seen in the book Five Views of Apologetics. Their practice is not always what they claim they are doing. Do you agree?

  110. Hey Doug,

    Thanks for the summary. I’ve followed the thread here and thought a post over at Maverick Philosopher relates to the “The Historical Atrocities Argument.” Bill does a bit of table turning to get at one of the consistent charges that Hitchens brings up in his debates. Here’s the link…
    http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/maverick_philosopher/2009/04/is-religion-the-problem-why-isnt-belief-as-such-the-problem-the-special-pleading-of-some-atheists.html

  111. I wouldn’t say I do have the time, but I certain want to make a little. The Aristotelean and Spinozistic conception that I had in mind are just two options for a theist who denies (or withholds his belief) that there is a revelation from god whereby he addresses humanity and seeks to bring wayfarers to himself.

    For a Christian theist, like myself, God has revealed to mankind, through the life and teaching of Jesus Christ, just who He Himself is and what He Himself is doing in His Governance of the Universe. Jesus, being himself God, manifests to us in his flesh and bones, his body and soul, his life and action, his words and intentions, just who God is and just what God is doing to establish His Governance of the World. Such Governance is not merely political where the Ruler is distant and uninvolved (or tragically manipulative and oppressively tyrannical). His Government is Love. Thus there is an existentially significant and weighty decision each person able to reflect upon life and existence must make with respect to his own destiny. But God’s revelation extends even to man in his wayfaring state, before he makes a decision. He helps us search for Himself. You can look at revelation and consider its merits even if you do not belief that it is revelation, you can even pray “God, if you exist, help me discover your existence and nature.” Revelation is not given merely subjectively by the Christian God; there is the historical Jesus, the Scriptures, and the ongoing action of Jesus’ Divinely Governed Society, the Church.

    Spinoza and Aristotle each believed that there is a necessarily existing entity. Aristotle believed such a necessary being was not a part of the universe. See his discussion in *The Physics*. Naturalists these days, that is, scientific materialists like Hitchens and Co., cannot explain the origin, design, or moral status of reality without positing a necessarily existing entity –that is, a non-material, non-natural, entity. I don’t know enough about Spinoza to say anything more than that he seems to have believed that god *is* the universe and thus the universe is divinized and it necessarily exists.

    The problem with a non-revelatory god is that such a god cannot be as perfect as can be.

    A revelatory god is closer to being as perfect as can be.

    Why? A revelatory god addresses the shambles that is human history and human society. He addresses it in the Christian tradition by bringing Justice. This is not some sadistic move, where people are arbitrarily evicted, sentenced, and cruelly hurt in the name of ‘restoring justice.’ Think of all the poor that suffer, even starve to death as the result of evil human rulers. Think of all the oppression that occurs in the name of economic progress. We all want justice. So does God, at least on the Christian conception. But he doesn’t just come to right the wrongs. He comes to offer a sort of life that can only be called god-like. He comes to right the wrongs, plus more. To give us undeserved enjoyment of life. This life is participation with His Life, that is, perfect life. Even in suffering we can have joy, because we know that suffering that is done with God at our side, is suffering God allows to conquer evil and injustice, both in our own life and in the world.

    A non-revelatory god, like the Deistic, Aristotelean, or Spinozistic types, is less perfect than the Christian God. If there is a God he’s as perfect as can be. If there is no God that is as perfect as can be, something the Christian conception holds to as a truth not to be denied, then I shall not worship him, I shall not so much as attempt to align myself with him. He is a strange cosmic absentee landlord who in not caring deserves no care. Perhaps there is such a god, but then he’s not really as perfect as can be and I am stuck wondering where the perfect one is. Wondering where the perfect god is; that’s the same as having no answer to the deepest of human questions. If there is no perfect god, there is no answer to the deepest of human questions. So life is a farce. But fortunately we have plenty of evidence to believe there is a perfect god and that is the God of the Christian worldview; so life is not only not a farce, but it is evident it is not a farce. Thanks be to God for giving those willing to seek and suffer the consolation of philosophy.

  112. First time poster and totally amateur arguer but here goes – RE: the burden of proof is on Craig, which I believe that it is. Here’s why.

    Note: I understand this particular debate is on the ‘existence of god’ and not also that that god is the God of the Old and New Testament – but seeing as how most responses on this board are from Christians I submit this point:

    Jesus Christ admits the buden of proof is on the believer.

    Evidence:
    The interaction with Thomas in the New Testament where Thomas doubts, Jesus shows up, let’s him stick his fingers in the wound, etc and Thomas believes.

    A couple of things:
    1) If eyewitness evidence of an empty tomb by other characters in the same book of the bible is cited as actual evidence by Criag, then what are we to say of a man who actually knew and talked to these people of yore, and did not believe them? Their own contemporary did not believe them. It’s a extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence, which Jesus then provided.

    2) A common response might be: Christ says that blessed are those who do not see and yet believe! OK, so what real difference does that make? Is Thomas not receiving his reward in heaven because he demanded extraordinary proof? Jesus didn’t say that… I am not aware of any NT scholars suggesting that Thomas is in hell or that there are levels of joy in Heaven… So, if there is no downside to demanding proof as Thomas did, I would have to put myself in that boat and request the same extraordinary treatment from Jesus Christ.

    If the burden of proof were also on the non-believer, then should Christ have shown up to Thomas? I submit that his showing up to Thomas concedes that the burden of proof is on Jesus Christ.

    By the way, I don’t buy that a “personal transformation” one experiences is that extraordinary proof that Jesus is Lord, because I have personally witnessed such personal transformations in myself as a Christian, in myself as an atheist, and in others as Chrstians, Atheists, Muslims, and Buddhists. I might allow that it supports an existence of lower case ‘god’ but I have to think about that some more before I make such a claim.

    Again, this arguement only applies to those who profess belief in the New Testament and seek to use the New Testament as evidence. Other beliefs in god or those who don’t take much of the Bible literally are off the hook. They don’t have this particular problem, per se.

  113. Doug Geivett Says:

    Because I’m preparing for a trip and will be traveling, my opportunity to leave additional comments will be limited for the next ten days. Please continue the discussion. And newcomers, please feel free to add to the thread. Brian, Mike, Alex, and Matt have recently left thoughtful comments that I hope to get to.

  114. Doug,
    Happy travels!

  115. [...] do your homework. As he did in his debate with Hitchens, Craig always offers at least five arguments in every debate: (1) the teleological argument or argument from design; (2) the cosmological argument; (3) the [...]

  116. Doug Said: “Maybe you could clarify what you mean when you say that Big Bang cosmology “has nothing to say about the origin of the universe and does not attempt to describe it.” That sounds plainly false. But if you mean that Big Bang cosmology takes our scientific understanding of the universe back to an absolute beginning without explaining how it began, then of course I agree.”

    The universe, as we see it today, was very different than it was 12-14.5 billion years ago. If you consider the state that it was in that long ago as “the beginning”, then that’s fine. However, how long the universe was in that very dense state, and if it ever existed as anything else before said state, it not covered by BBT. Thus, to say that there is evidence for the origin of the universe, and to later attribute that evidence to the existence of a god, is very misleading unless you define “beginning” as the state of the universe immediately before it began expanding.

    There are two reasons why I think that the question ‘why is there something rather than nothing’ is not a helpful or appropriate beginning to answer one of the oldest, most difficult questions humanity has asked itself. (1) There is not yet any evidence that suggests that a period of absolute nothingness ever existed; and (2) even if there was, that ’something’ could come from ‘nothing’ is not impossible to begin with, given that virtual particles appear and disappear from existence all the time.

  117. Mihretu Guta Says:

    Dr. Doug,

    Thank you so much for your excellent summary of the debate between William Craig and Christopher Hitchens. I attended the debate live. So I can tell that your have summed up the debate accurately.

    Here is what I have to say very briefly:

    In my opinion, William Craig nailed it down and made his case so persuasively, eloquently, with utmost precision. Why did I say this? Here are some reasons I have:

    Craig gave reasons for his position on the existence of God. I do not have to list his reasons here but the point is that whether one agrees with him or not, Craig came up with arguments as opposed to assertions and rhetoric. One cannot help but face the arguments Craig put forth with respect to the existence of God. For someone who does not believe in God’s existence, even if all of Craig’s arguments turned out to be unconvincing, Craig provided evidence to counter his opponent’s objections. By doing so, I believe he made his case.

    On the other hand, Hitchens came up with assertions and rhetoric that only worked against him with respect to the position he claimed to be supporting. If God doesn’t exist, according to Hitchens, what were the arguments he provided for that? As a philosopher myself, I was not able to identify the arguments he gave for his position other than the assertions and rhetoric he built throughout the debate. Moreover, he was not even clear on the precise definition of his own position which exposed him to be instructed on the stage by Craig on the basic notions like what a worldview is, inter alia. If Hitchens thinks he has a case for atheism, it shouldn’t be based on rhetorical strategy that might attract an uncritical audience already biased to jump into the bandwagon of atheists who make assertions to make their case against the existence of God. So, the best thing to do for atheists like Hitchens is to take time and come up with evidence to support their arguments against the existence of God. As far as I can tell, Hitchens came up with neither evidence nor arguments to make his case. So, it is incumbent on him to work as hard as he can to develop arguments to engage his opponent like Craig, who in my view, had done his assignment so very well, that is to say, excellent preparation to engage his opponent.

    Finally, if the best critic of Christianity, like Hitchens, doesn’t have arguments but so many complaints against God, that won’t really show that God doesn’t exist. But it only shows a desperate move on the part of a person who doesn’t just want God to exist. Maybe this is a curable problem if Hitchens-type atheists want to apply Craig’s fifth suggestion in his debate, which is direct experience of God. If anyone is willing to know God, he or she can experience the reality of God. But this is not based on the strength, or lack thereof, of arguments, but it is a personal decision. For those who accept God’s existence on the basis of arguments, God’s reality becomes more evident. But in case, in the absence of the knowledge of arguments for God’s existence, if a person seeks God he/she can still find God. After all, God is not conditioned by our arguments yet arguments play their important role in helping us know why belief in God is rational.

    Have a nice day,

    Mihretu Guta

  118. If you’ll forgive the plug, I offer some insights into Craig’s debating style over at my blog. I’m an atheist, but I agree with Loftus and others on here that Craig certainly spanked Hitchens.

    What’s surprising to me is that Craig has a very straightforward style that thousands of kids employ every day. It’s not difficult to understand and get prepared for it, and yet virtually every atheist to debate Craig refuses to do the necessary preparation. Whether that’s due to arrogance or ignorance, I don’t know, but I wish it were otherwise. (Notable exception: Eddie Tabash.)

  119. “12.The second half of cross-examination must have been interesting to the predominantly evangelical audience. Christopher Hitchens asked Bill Craig directly whether he believes that there are devils, that Jesus was born of a virgin, that some nonChristian religions are false, and that some Christian denominations entertain false beliefs. Craig answered each, respectively: yes, yes, yes, and yes. But he added (a) that the existence or non-existence of demons has no bearing on his argument from the resurrection for theism, (b) that while he did not think the virgin birth could be proved, whether it happened is also irrelevant to his case for theism, (c) that Islam is among the false religions, and (d) that while there are differences among Christian brethren (Craig is not a Calvinist but more of a Wesleyan, for example), their differences are on less substantive points. While Craig may not have expected this line of questioning, he answered well. It was a sign of Hitchens’s lack of preparation, I believe, that his cross-examination of Craig was unproductive. (One further indication of this is that Craig’s answers were never brought up for special criticism.)”

    If that was his answer then how could he possibly have answered it well?

  120. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Andrew,

    People here will probably be interested in your link. I know Eddie Tabash, and have debated him myself. We may do it again, sometime.

    -Doug

  121. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Mihretu,

    Thanks for adding your reflections on the debate. I’m glad you were able to be there for it.

    -Doug

  122. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi, again, Jake. I’m anxious to reply to your two points from April 13. I’m still out of town, so it will have to be later. Your two comments provide an excellent opportunity to clarify.

    -Doug

  123. Doug Geivett Says:

    I’ve approved the April 13 link to evaluatingchristianity.wordpress.com here in the comments on my post because it provides a handy set of guidelines for debating William Lane Craig. The author’s advice: don’t debate Craig unless you’re qualified; being qualified takes more than you think. This is advice coming from a non-theist. And it’s pretty good on strategy. I’ve read the few comments to the author’s post, as of April 15, 2009, and I have to say they are pretty inadequate.

  124. Doug Geivett Says:

    Thanks, Alex. The weather in the Pacific Northwest has been spectacular. First time in a long time that I’ve gotten a sunburn! -Doug

  125. Mozza,
    If I understand you, you’re asking how Craig could’ve answered well given the particular things he answered “yes” to. I take it that you’re thinking that anyone who answers “yes” to these has not answered well.

    Two interpretations of “not answering well” come to mind. The one I doubt you mean is that Craig made some sort of tactical mistake and undermined his own case. But remember, the debate was over the question, “Does God exist?” Craig’s yesses were consistent with his arguments for theism, so they did nothing to undermine his cumulative case. Hitchens could also have asked Craig, say, his preferred theory of the Kennedy assassination, and that would have been interesting to hear, but equally irrelevant as a rebuttal.

    But maybe that’s not what you meant by Craig’s not answering well. Instead, you might mean that anyone who admits, as Craig did, to believing in the existence of demons or a historical virgin birth has ipso facto, not answered well. Perhaps it’s just that you think these things don’t exist or didn’t happen–indeed, perhaps you think these statements are abundantly clear to any sensible person. If that’s what you meant, then two things need to be said: first, incredulity is no rebuttal to arguments in general, nor is it to Craig’s case for theism, in particular; and second, if his not answering well is little more than an expression of an anti-supernatural bias, that’s pretty plainly question-begging.

  126. Doug,

    Thanks for the plug. A lot of atheists seem to want to play the “shoot at the King” game and debate William Lane Craig right out of the box. My point (condensed) is that Craig is the major-leagues; he’s the best debater you guys have, and it’s negligence for would-be opponents not to take him as seriously as Craig takes each of his debates.

    Worse, when poorly-prepared atheists do poorly against Craig, they frequently offer up nonsensical or ridiculous excuses for their failures. (I should call out Richard Carrier as a notable exception here; he lost his recent debate against Craig and was very candid about why.) I can’t tell you the number of complaints I’ve seen about how Craig “unfairly” offers a lot of arguments in a short period of time or extends points his opponents didn’t have time to respond to.

    What Craig does is not “unfair”; it’s what good debaters do. If you don’t want to play by the rules, then stick to online debates, blog posts, scholarly articles, etc. But if you wade into a debate, you should be prepared for what’s coming. I try to offer some insight as to how to go about doing that, and I hope it’s interesting for both sides.

    Thanks again,
    -Andrew

  127. Thanks for the review, it was very informative. I wonder why atheists continue to come to debates on the existence of God without inference to best possible explanation arguments. If you enter a debate you need to show your position to be correct or the other person’s to be wrong. I have seen but one atheist do this, Austin Dacey. No other has to my knowledge provided any good reason to be an atheist.

    :)

  128. Hi Doug,

    I just got back from the World View conference and have to say I really enjoyed listening to you. “Factual Evidence” and the “Problems of Evil”

  129. Ah, sorry for the double post. I didn’t want to post that yet, oh well. But anyways, you’re a great speaker, keep up the good work. I am trying to learn everything I can to defend the Christian faith, and become well equipped in apologetics. Great article!

  130. Doug Geivett Says:

    Andrew,

    Your post about debating Craig should be interesting to both (or all) sides. Of course I agree with your comments here. I would add that Craig’s opponents are free to re-frame the debate and attempt to spread him with more than he can respond to. This has been tried, with varying degrees of success.

    My next debate with will be with John Shook, in Buffalo, New York, July 31.

  131. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Steve,

    Did you attend a debate with Austin Dacey? Whom did he debate?

    -Doug

  132. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Daniel,

    I’m glad you enjoyed the Bellevue conference over the weekend (April 17-18, 2009). Thanks for coming!

    -Doug

  133. Luis Dias Says:

    Hi. I’m a little disappointed that most theists and atheists alike think Craig won, I wish I could hear the debate without having to buy it to form my own opinion, but I guess that won’t happen anytime soon.

    But judging from the comments here, I’d say that you think Hitchens bypassed the Moral argument completely. Knowing that Hitchens repeats ad nauseum his own rethorial speeches over and over, with little adaptation to each one of his debaters, I’m almost sure he invoked the idea of not having to defer to the “celestial dictatorship” to know what’s wright and wrong.

    He doesn’t clarify this well, and the blame is on him, not on Craig nor any other apologist, but that is in fact, a good rebuttal. I’ll try to explain why.

    Morals are the rules by which we try to be good or evil. I’ll leave the problem of goodness to explain afterwards. They are chosen rules, and here the moral argument is that without an ultimate reference, there is no moral. What Hitchens says about not referring to the “celestial dictatorship” is that if we assume that is a celestial entity that defines what is right or what is wrong, then all that is happening is that we are merely obeying orders (do this, do that), hence we are nothing but slaves to a dictator.

    I’m not even starting on the problem that many religions have different sets of morals, all testifying that theirs is the “ultimate”, because it was god himself that created them. And I won’t because Hitchens probably didn’t say it (a slight “probably”).

    If apologists continue to press that this doesn’t rebut anything and the argument stands, its because they aren’t understanding the semantics of the reply.

    For a Theist, what is good or evil is that by which god either likes or dislikes, and morals are the set of rules deduced by that.

    An atheist, by not believing in god is seen by theists either as not acknowledging the source of morals, or not moral at all (what Hitchens probably thought Craig was trying to do). What theists don’t understand very well is that the notion that morals only exist if god exists is an unproven assertion, not backed up by anything other than wishful thinking by the part of the believers, and one that atheists don’t believe, period.

    Said other way, believers believe that morals are, by definition, the wants and want nots of a god, then of course an atheist is either immoral or not aknowledging god. But atheists don’t have that definition of moral or ethics. What is Right or Wrong isn’t something arbitrarily dictated by someone, but a fundamental distinction between something that causes pain and suffering, and other that causes happiness and joy.

    And if you want evidence for either of these just think on the amount of times that morals have changed. Is that a sign that morals are absolute and unchangeable, or more that morals are a human construct for the benefit of themselves, something that is very hard to build and maintain and fight for, just as been done in the centuries past, mostly against theologians, I might add?

  134. Luis Dias Says:

    PS: I wanted to add that I don’t espouse the notion that a debate should be about shouting better or spreading your enemy too thin, etc., that is, that “all is permissible”. Well, I’m all for allowing freedom to everyone, but those tactics are only some of a wide amount of tactics that are clearly devised to destroy the debate itself, not to destroy the arguments.

    As an example, take the debate between Dinesh and Dennet, where Dinesh clearly won by rethorics, but with total disrespect with Dennets’ points and questions, and ramming through as only a compulsive teenager would.

    But this should be dealt with inside the debate, not outside. That is, you cannot be given a “landslide”, allow it to happen, and then afterwards blame it on the opponent. No. If the opponent is making what you perceive as a rethorical mischievous tactic, you should be able to make your audience understand that tactic and move on with your answers.

    An example is when Dinesh (again, but who can blame me for him being such a terrible example) debated Hitchens and asked him several things, and when Hitchens was thoroughfully rebbuting those points, he was cut off by the former beause he was already speaking “too much”, and then criticized Hitchens for not replying to all of his questions (!?!?), which was not so subtle a way to be a donkey, and all the audience understood that tactic.

  135. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Luis,

    I’m glad you’ve commented. You bring up several good points. Here’s my response, with points numbered for ease of future reference:

    (1) Hitchens did argue more-or-less the way you imagine he would.
    (2) Hitchens dropped Craig’s version of the moral argument. He confused WLC’s argument with a different argument that Hitchens was more comfortable answering.
    (3) Hitchens did not develop a response to Craig’s argument in the way you have here.
    (4) Had Hitchens presented the argument you adopt here, he would probably have appeared to be more persuasive than he did. At least it would have been less obvious that he had dropped the argument WLC presented.
    (5) Your counterargument to the WLC version of the moral argument assumes that WLC (if not all theists) adopts a divine-command theory of ethics. You bring up one horn of the Euthyphro dilemma, stated in Plato’s dialogue called Euthyphro. Not all theists are divine-command theorists in ethics. (For sophisticated expositions and defenses divine-command theory, see Robert Adams.)
    (6) There are varieties of moral argument for the existence of God. WLC presents one such argument. If his argument fails, it wouldn’t follow that there is no good moral argument for the existence of God.
    (7) I don’t believe that the most fundamental thing about morality is a moral “rule” or set of “rules.” Like many moral philosophers (see , for example, Mark Timmons, Moral Theory: An Introduction), I think moral principles are more fundamental and moral general than moral rules. A moral principle, on my view, is rooted in the configuration of certain aspects of reality. There are objective moral truths or facts, and there exist entities (i.e., human persons) that, in virtue of being the sorts of things they are (i.e., having the nature they have), stand under moral imperatives that arise through the relation between them (i.e., human persons) and objective moral truths or facts. In response to specific circumstances that call for moral action, human persons apply rules that they perceive to be rooted in these objective moral facts and their corresponding principles. Moral truths or facts are abstract objects; thus, they are causally inert. And yet, there are contingently existing entities (ourselves, for example) that happen to have natures such that the existence of moral facts places them under moral obligations. In other words, there are natural moral laws that determine the moral quality of our behavior. And, in keeping with my Aristotelian propensities, part of what it means for human persons to flourish is for them to act in accordance with moral principles that exist in virtue of there being human persons with natures that link up with abstract moral truths. How does God enter the picture? There are at least two important roles for God to play. First, God designs a world where moral action would be meaningful for (have purchase on) creatures of the right kind, and creates beings with natures of this kind (creatures for whom natural moral laws apply). Our world is an environment in which morally significant action would be possible for beings of the right sort. We are beings of precisely that sort. So there is a morally suitable environment for moral activity and there are moral agents who exist in that environment. This is not what one would expect on a purely naturalistic understanding of reality. Second, God enforces natural moral law. Natural moral law accounts for our being morally obliged to behave in certain ways. But this law is meaningless if not enforcible. There is much more to say than this about God’s relevance. But this is hardly the place to develop the point in detail. So we are both morally responsible (first point) and morally accountable (second point), and neither would be true without God.
    (7) So to say that theists are mistaken in their claim that “morals only exist if god [sic] exists” is altogether too vague. What do you mean by “morals”?
    (8) It may be that you part company with C. Hitchens in the claims you make in the final paragraph of your comment in this thread. Hitchens is most naturally interpreted in a way that forbids him to allow the kind of moral relativism alluded to in stating your view.
    (9) What actually changes over time, from generation to generation, and across geographical locations? “Morals,” you say. But what does this mean? Do objective moral truths or facts change? Do the principles that arise through the relation between moral facts and human persons change? Or do moral rules (i.e., the application of moral principles to changing situations) change? All of the above?

  136. Doug Geivett Says:

    Luis, I haven’t seen the debates between DD and Dennet, and between DD and Hitchens.

  137. Thanks for your reply, Doug. I wish I’d attended [the] debate; we don’t get many here in the UK. [I mentioned Dacey and] a debate that he had with Craig. In fact they had two. Very interesting they were, too.

    I’ll shoot you a link:

  138. Doug Geivett Says:

    Steve,

    Thanks for the link for the debate between Craig and Dacey. I look forward to viewing it on YouTube.

    -Doug

  139. No problem, its a great and honest debate without the nonsense of excuses from atheists. Its a real challenge for Craig and I enjoyed it a lot.

  140. Luis Dias Says:

    Doug,

    Thank you for your considerate and comprehensive reply. I won’t have time today to feedback it, so my intent in writing this is to let you know I read it :), and that I didn’t agree with most you said :).

    I was also expecting the accusation of moral relativism, which is a common place whenever one challenges the assumption that moral absolutes exist. Rather on the reverse, if you posit that morals are induced from the reality (objective, not subjective) of pain, suffering, joy and happiness, you couldn’t be more distant from moral relativism.

    But I’ll develop this idea and the other challenges you put when I have the time.

    If you want to see the debates I mentioned, they are both found on google video (I think Dennet vs D’Souza is on Youtube, but they are found on GV the same).

  141. Doug Geivett Says:

    Thanks, Luis

  142. Knowing that Hitchens repeats ad nauseum his own rhetorical speeches over and over, with little adaptation to each one of his debaters, I’m almost sure he invoked the idea of not having to defer to the “celestial dictatorship” to know what’s wright and wrong.

    The problem is that defenders of the moral argument do not claim that you need God to know what’s right and wrong, they claim that God is necessary for moral properties like right and wrong to exist. This is simply a confusion between ontological and epistemological questions and actually reiterates Doug’s point that Hitchens misunderstands the moral argument.

    Morals are the rules by which we try to be good or evil. I’ll leave the problem of goodness to explain afterwards. They are chosen rules, and here the moral argument is that without an ultimate reference, there is no moral. What Hitchens says about not referring to the “celestial dictatorship” is that if we assume that is a celestial entity that defines what is right or what is wrong, then all that is happening is that we are merely obeying orders (do this, do that), hence we are nothing but slaves to a dictator.

    You don’t rebut a position by describing it in pejorative terms such as “celestial dictator”. You need to actually offer an argument.
    Luis’ argument seems to me to be unsound. He suggests that if our moral obligations are constituted by divine commands then we are “merely slaves to a dictator,” which is presumably a criticism of the theory. The problem is that the word dictator has certain conations which don’t apply in the context of the moral argument. God is all knowing, he is perfectly good and incorruptible, hence it’s not possible for his commands to ever be malicious or mistaken. A human dictator, however, is of roughly the same intelligence as everyone else, frequently ignorant, bigoted, corrupted by power and brutal. Hence, one cannot legitimately draw conclusions about following earthly dictators and then apply these to the question as to whether we should follow Gods commands as the situations are dis-analogous.

    I’m not even starting on the problem that many religions have different sets of morals, all testifying that theirs is the “ultimate”, because it was god himself that created them. And I won’t because Hitchens probably didn’t say it (a slight “probably”).

    The same applies to secular sets of morals; utilitarians, kantians, virtue theorists, contractualists, etc all have different sets of morals and all disagree over what the ultimate foundation of morality is. Presumably then, by Luis’ logic, secular ethics is problematic?

    If apologists continue to press that this doesn’t rebut anything and the argument stands, its because they aren’t understanding the semantics of the reply.

    No, it is because, as I pointed out, it is not a good argument. Hitchens’ confusion of epistemology and ontology and the use of pejorative and misleading analogies about dictators and appeals to disagreements among religious ethics that apply with equal force to secular ethics are not good arguments.

    What theists don’t understand very well is that the notion that morals only exist if god exists is an unproven assertion, not backed up by anything other than wishful thinking by the part of the believers, and one that atheists don’t believe, period.

    Of course if you assert that theism is merely wishful thinking then you’re correct. But simply asserting that is not an argument any more than a theist asserting that the athiest’s belief in the existence of moral properties, such as right and wrong, (a concept which is arguably harder to prove the existence of by scientific means that theism is) is wishful thinking.

    Said other way, believers believe that morals are, by definition, the wants and want nots of a god, then of course an atheist is either immoral or not aknowledging god. But atheists don’t have that definition of moral or ethics.

    Again, simply describing a position pejoratively as “arbitrarily dictated” is not an argument. There have been arguments made by defenders of divine command theories that contest that their position is arbitrary. Hitchens could have read these and attempted to refute them, he did not.

    What is Right or Wrong isn’t something arbitrarily dictated by someone, but a fundamental distinction between something that causes pain and suffering, and other that causes happiness and joy.

    The problem is that there are obvious counter examples to this. Some rapists enjoy raping – Ted Bundy said he did – hence, if something is good if it causes “happiness and joy,” then rape can be good. Moreover, rape can also be carried out so as to not cause any pain or suffering, a doctor who rapes an unconscious patient, for example. Hence if wrongness is what causes suffering and pain this sort of rape is not wrong.

    And if you want evidence for either of these just think on the amount of times that morals have changed. Is that a sign that morals are absolute and unchangeable, or more that morals are a human construct for the benefit of themselves, something that is very hard to build and maintain and fight for, just as been done in the centuries past, mostly against theologians, I might add?

  143. Luis Dias Says:

    Doug,

    Here’s a feedback of mine to your carefully crafted reply. I also thank for your bulleting numbers for ease of discussion :). I’ll bullet with letters my own arguments so there will be less confusion.

    (a) I would think Hitchens would argue the way I imagined, and I understand your numbers (1) to (4).

    (b) In response to (6), I’d say sure, but I’ve yet to find a non-convoluted moral argument that doesn’t have simpler answers in purely materialistic / naturalistic terms.
    (c) I’d also say that what begins to be asserted as a argument for the existence of God usually transforms itself to an argument not against God, that is, from attacking to defensive (normally due to (b)).
    (d) I agree with your take on moral principles, of course, I was simplifying too much. I agree with the entirety of your argument until the sentence “How does God enter the picture”, with a slight caveat.
    (e) The caveat is that even those moral principles, truths and facts emerge from the facts of nature as they currently stand on our universe, our planet and our relationship with either nature or eachother. That is, they don’t exist by themselves, but are contingent on us being here on time and space.
    (f) You then confuse things and argue from design. You say that we are created as being moral agents, and, coincidence of coincidences, the universe is designed to be such a cosmos where moral significance is possible. Instead, the reverse is true, it is our own morals that have adapted to the human condition, in a very similar manner of a way as in darwinian explanations. And this is verifiable in history too, where morals did evolve, not only due to the changing societies (and technologies), but also due to ethical inquiry, trial and error.
    (g) I do not see where you get from the fact that non enforcing laws are meaningless to the argument that this proves “God’s relevance”. The only thing you did is to point out that moral laws have to be enforced in some way, and the answers are as obvious as multiple. We usually do this because (g1) we’re moral natural beings, that is, we are genetically predisposed to understand and obey moral principles (as animals do, and population survival explain this very well and flawlessly), (g2) we’re culturally reinforced to obey these moral principles (by education), and (g3) we give both credit and guilt (socially) to those that deserve it. There’s also a fourth accountability which is by our own conscience (g4). Now, this system ain’t perfect, and yes, many people will die with their moral atrocities unnacounted for. But not everything in life is just, it is just the way it is. To say that accountability must necessarily exist is mere wishful thinking.
    (h) I think I’ve clarified your question of (7). I generally agree with your definition of morals, just not their origin.
    (i) ” Hitchens is most naturally interpreted in a way that forbids him to allow the kind of moral relativism alluded to in stating your view.” Well, I’m not moral relativist, which is to say, I believe that there are always better morals than others, and they are to be fought about, because if no one does, the idea of a better moral fails to exist. That is, it is very important to fight for better morals, precisely because there is always the danger of them not surviving, or not winning the social debate.
    (j) I think I’ve already answered (9). There are actions and consequences, irreversibly (arrow of time), and there are multiple ways of dealing with ourselves and the world around us, but only very few do bring us closer to our own purposes as a thriving society and happy human beings (The assumption is of course, that we wish to be happy, but I don’t think an alarming number of humans don’t, for the sake of the argument). Those finite ways are summed up nicely in moral guidelines. The caveat is that these aren’t divinely defined, they are hard learnt and teached, and aren’t necessarily perfect. They are just the best ones we’ve come to this far.

    Thank you for the interchange.

  144. Luis Dias Says:

    Matt,

    Thanks for your reply. Let me answer your points.

    1. I do understand the difference you stated in Hitchen’s defence of the moral argument, nor do I want to defend him on that subject.

    2. You don’t rebut a position by describing it in pejorative terms such as “celestial dictator”

    It is neither perjorative nor otherwise. It is like it is (a dictator is someone who dictates). Doug replied well, positing that what I was making was to bring one horn of the Euthyphro dilemma. You misrepresented what I said, by comparing God with human dictatorship, that was neither my case nor Hitchens’. The case is that dictatorship on itself is an evil proposition be it divine or human for, one, it undermines human freedom a priori at its very core, and, second, is the very ideological basis for totalitarianism, a word coined in european right-wing christian fascist countries (I know it personally, I live in one such a country with that history).

    The other assumption you make is that God, if exists, is perfectly good. It is not an impossible hypothesis, but merely asserted, as all divinely inspired kings, emperors, popes, pharaos, etc. also asserted of their own justice. The evidence of that is also lacking so we’re talking about wishful thinking.

    2. Presumably then, by Luis’ logic, secular ethics is problematic?

    As all things human are. But that isn’t my problem, for I am not saying that these ethics are divine, perfect, “natural”, etc. It is precisely when one enters the ethical discussions with the presumption that one is embebbed with a divine truth that the discussion is hijacked and sabotaged. Only coming down to our senses and aknowledging that we’re here for each other and we have to design our moral system without resorting to cognitive cheats will we stand a chance to evolve.

    3. But simply asserting that is not an argument any more than a theist asserting that the athiest’s belief in the existence of moral properties, such as right and wrong, (a concept which is arguably harder to prove the existence of by scientific means that theism is) is wishful thinking.

    The naturalist explanations for moral are sufficient, and require not any supernatural additions. Poincaré was once asked by Napoleon, after showing him his own model of the solar system, where God was in his system. Poincaré simply stated that he needed not that “hypothesis”. I state the same.

    But notice that the positions aren’t symetrical. While theists accuse atheists of wishful thinking when believing morals can exist without God, I was saying that theists are wishful thinking when they postulate that they cannot, a priori. If you are careful, you’ll see that this is again, the God of the gaps (that which isn’t explained by science, goddidit), and furthermore, it is an unproven assertion when all the evidence points out the reverse. It is not that difficult to understand the origins of morals in naturalistic terms, if you leave your prejudices behind and think hard on it.

    4.The problem is that there are obvious counter examples to this. Some rapists enjoy raping – Ted Bundy said he did – hence, if something is good if it causes “happiness and joy,” then rape can be good.

    Please, we are adults speaking here. Don’t insult yourself with that simplistic take on such a simple moral dillema. Morality isn’t born only on the individual, but also on the social. Yes, it may have caused joy to the rapist, but it caused great suffering to the victim. Today we consider that the suffering of rape is too great for it ever be justified by any “inner bursts” a savage might have, but it wasn’t always so, as the Bible for instance, testifies. Clearly, we’ve evolved :).

    Also, I was saying that for the sake of argument, enough people want happiness and joy. A rapist might be happy in the moment, but won’t be so in the decades spent on jail.

    Moreover, rape can also be carried out so as to not cause any pain or suffering, a doctor who rapes an unconscious patient, for example. Hence if wrongness is what causes suffering and pain this sort of rape is not wrong.

    If rape could be certain not to cause any pain or suffering, then you would be right. But of course, even your example is unfortunate in that regard. In your example, the doctor may inflict damage upon the patient, may cause psychological damage to the patient when he knows what happened, may cause similar damage to any other people knowing the event. I think it is also not a good thing for the doctor himself.

    Even the rape of a dead body is a bad thing, for it is a disrespect for the memory of the person.

    Anyway, morals aren’t only “decided” rationally and with “scientific” criteria. It is also a gusto, a taste, an intuition we have.

  145. Luis we agree on 1. As for the rest:

    2. First, if you define a dictator as ‘someone who dictates’ then all authorities (governments, police, etc) are dictators. After all, the government can dictate what I can and cannot do, the police can stop me and dictate that I answer their questions; hence, they are, by your definition, dictators and thus evil. Anarchism is the logical implication of this contention.

    Second you say dictatorships (as you define the term) are evil. I am not so sure. If a person was a dictator (by your definition) but also was completely wise, fully informed, perfectly good and benevolent, then I am not convinced that there would be a problem with following such a person’s commands.

    You suggest that a dictator is evil because it violates our right to freedom. I don’t see the force of this. Suppose right and wrong are constituted by divine commands, the restrictions on our freedom, then, will simply be our freedom to do what is wrong. But this is true whether or not you ground morality in Gods commands. Suppose you ground the principles of morality in some natural property, our freedom will still be restricted by those principles. It is hard to see how the fact our freedom is restricted counts against divine command theory and not against secular theory as it is an implication of both.

    It seems to me your position is incoherent here. After all, if it is unjust to restrict our freedom in certain ways then an all knowing, perfectly good, dictator would know this, and further, being good, he would not do it. On the other hand, if it is not unjust to restrict our freedom in these ways then there is no problem with him doing so. I am inclined to think, then, that it is impossible for a perfectly good dictator to restrict our freedom unjustly.

    Finally, you state that my claim that God is good is asserted with no evidence. That is, unfortunately, a circular argument. We are discussing Craig’s moral argument: hence we are discussing the question of whether the existence of moral obligations provide evidence for the existence of God (where God is understood as a perfectly good, omniscient being). To argue that moral obligations do not provide evidence for God’s existence because there is no evidence for his existence, is to beg the very question at issue. If the moral argument is sound then there is evidence for his existence.

    3. [you have labelled two points as “2.”], Here we simply have assertions that theism is a “cognitive cheat” and “sabotage’s” ethics etc. Apart from that, you concede my point, the objection you raised to divine command theories applies with equal force to secular theories. As such, this objection cannot show that secular theories are superior to theistic ones nor can it provide a reason for preferring secular theories over religious ones.

    4 . [your 3.] As far as I can tell there is no real response here. You simply assert that secular theories are sufficient but that’s just an assertion. You assert there is good evidence against these theories, but again, that is just an assertion. You then state that any intelligent, unprejudiced person can understand a “naturalistic” account of the origins of morals.

    Three things here: first, the issue is not whether one can understand a naturalistic account of the origins of morality, it is whether one agrees that such and account successfully explains the existence of moral obligations or do so as successfully as theistic accounts do. Second, your argument here is simply a veiled insult, it essentially states that if someone disagrees with you they are an unintelligent bigot it. Thirdly, the statement is clearly false. There are plenty of intelligent unprejudiced people who do not accept that naturalism can account for moral obligation. The most brilliant atheist of the last century, J L Mackie, believed that one could not give a naturalistic account of morality. The numerous atheists who defend an error theory also accept this. Finally, calling something “God of the gaps” is not a rebuttal. If there is a phenomenon that theism explains better than naturalism then that is evidence for theism.

    5 . [Your 4.] First, you respond here by insinuating that I am childish and simplistic. That, however, is not an argument.

    Second, you note that rape often causes suffering to its victims. I agree the problem is that it also causes joy for the rapist. If as you say, rightness is “what causes happiness and joy” then it follows that rape is right. Of course given your definition of wrongness, “that which causes suffering and pain,” rape is also wrong. The fact your position entails contradictory answers does not provide a defence of it.

    Third, you suggest that the rapist will not be happy because he will be put in jail. This, however, has things backwards, we put people in jail because we consider there actions to be wrong; hence, an action’s wrongness cannot depend on putting someone in jail.

    Your fourth response is to state that if rape does not cause harm then it is not wrong. I provided some cases where it doesn’t and yet no one, including you, accepts rape is acceptable in these cases so this claim is not true.

    Fifth, you respond to these cases by saying the women would suffer if she knew it had happened, but that does not shows that the rape causes harm; it shows that believing one has been raped causes harm. All that follows, then, from your definition is that it is wrong for victims of such rape to be informed of it. Provided the rape stays concealed it is not wrong because the victim is not harmed and the rapist is happy. I put it to you that this is absurd.

    Finally, you suggest that rape of a corpse disrespects the memory of the person. This is beside the point; you stated that what is wrong is what causes unhappiness and a dead person doesn’t have emotions. Yes you can disrespect people without causing them to suffer but that is precisely the point, actions can be wrong even if they do not cause suffering, and hence, wrongness cannot be identified with that which causes suffering.

  146. Luis Dias Says:

    Matt,

    I thought I wouldn’t get anymore answers, thanks for the reply.

    2. (1 is finished) There is a difference between authority and dictatorship, one that is easily settled by means of finding out how this authority is given. In a democracy, the authority of policemen, courts, etc., is ultimately given by the people, for even accounting the separation of institutions, the law that everybody is judged by is always defined by representatives of the people. It is an imperfect system (as all human things are), but ideologically correct, for the authority in the society ultimately rests on the citizen himself. This is evident in many authority mottos, which are guided by the principle of “to serve, not to dictate”.

    Dictatorship is by definition something unnappealing to, unalterable, unchangeable, unimpeachable, that isn’t accountable to no one but himself.

    Clearly, the difference is staggering. God here is the ultimate ruler, a dictator of the last sort. He isn’t “voted” by anyone, he hasn’t any accountability to do, etc.

    What Hitchens said and I agree fully, is that this in itself is an evil idea, that it is the very seed of the idea of totalitarianism. If you can conceive, as you apparently do, a perfect, almighty, supergood, etc. being, then you will build up a moral system in which you will be subdued to all such being’s teachings and wants, for they are all perfect.

    The problem easily follows. Because we have no evidence this being exists nor that it does communicate such warrants, all we are left is with the *possibility* of such being be the case, and if you add the notion that *some* people have better communication schemes with this deity than others, all we end up having is some people commanding and judging others by what they (the judged and commanded, pay attention) believe is the *ultimate* moral, without any kind of external control of it being truly God’s will or not.

    This happened in fascist countries all around europe, but it started way before in history of course (divine rights of kings, pharaos and the like).

    This has nothing to do with the paradox you mentioned.

    2.1

    Finally, you state that my claim that God is good is asserted with no evidence. That is, unfortunately, a circular argument

    There is a fundamental difference in the affirmation of: “God exists (because moral obligation exist)” and “God is Good”, so your reasoning is lacking here, I am not starting where I finish. What you suggest here is slightly different, is that because moral obligations exist, hence God exists, hence God is Good (for morality comes from Him).

    But what I said is that the last jump does not necessarily follow from the first jump. One could easily picture a Good and Bad God, a Ying and Yang sort of a thing, that could describe the paths of Goodness (Morals). Even a Demon could define morals, by behaving exactly the opposite of them (just as we aknowledge that drinking moderately is good when we see a drunk making a fool of himself in a bar).

    3.…the objection you raised to divine command theories applies with equal force to secular theories

    Wrong. I’m not saying that the problem with divine command theories is that they are imperfect, as obviously they all are and were throughout history, but that they claim to be perfect because they are divine. Secular theories make no such claims and are always open to debate. It is this difference that makes divine command theories wrong and dangerous.

    Now I’d aknowledge that most (most) christians do not regard their morals as *direct* commands from God, they see that many decisions (the most complex ones, like condoms for instance) have to be though out by some kind of a ministry of priests who then interpret god’s will, and that these theories are debated.

    Which is an hilarious giveaway if you think about it. What they are really doing is a hybrid of a sorts.

    In either case, be it secular moral or theistic moral, what you always must do is to discuss morality as if no one has such direct communication, nor even indirect (through theology or the likes). Because the moment you do that, you are claiming to have more knowledge about something by unsupporting means than the others that don’t agree with you. And this is no way to discuss anything.

    4. First, I’d like to say there is no veiled insult, and you misinterpreted me completely in this point. My point isn’t that you don’t understand naturalistic evolved morals, nor that such explanations do exist, but that because they are such good explanations, the first jump I stated above (Moral Obligations exist, hence God exists) is no longer obvious nor needed.

    That is, the moral argument pressuposes there is no natural explanation for morals, hence only the God hypothesis can explain morals. But they do exist, hence the moral argument fails to support anything. It stopped being a supporting evidence and started to be a compability defense (in the sense of, God is compatible with moral obligations, in contrast with, God is proven with moral obligations).

    The most brilliant atheist of the last century, J L Mackie, believed that one could not give a naturalistic account of morality

    Well, if he stated it, either he *wasn’t* that brilliant, or he simply was unaware of them. I’ve summed up the reasoning up here, the points are all clear and simple, and I’ve yet to see any moral obligations that these “can’t” explain.

    5. First I never call anyone names in any discussion. I called your reasoning simplistic and insulting to you, which is supposed to be read as a double negative. Arguments aren’t people, and adult intelligent people often do simplistic and childish arguments, I know I do, hence the sayin’, errare humanum est.

    The fact your position entails contradictory answers does not provide a defence of it.

    Yes it does entail contraditory answers, as all moral dillemas that have been eventually solved throughout history had. This is not a defence, it is simply an obvious aknowledgement. If rape, murder and theft hadn’t their pros, they wouldn’t even be considered in legislation (perhaps in footnotes).

    What I said is that rape also entails enormous suffering, and thus it has been secularly decided by the people that this shouldn’t be allowed, for the joy of the rapist is at the expense of other’s suffering. This has to do with the Golden Rule, or the obvious take that for everybody to be free, everyone has to respect other people’s freedoms. To rape, to steal, to kill is to go against other people’s freedoms, to oppress them.

    I put it to you that this is absurd.

    Show why, you haven’t. Simply put, no one has any moral judgement on any action that they do not know about. When one makes the assumption that it did occur, then it is immoral, not before. Let’s see this through.

    a) Provided that the rape has been concealed, then yes, it wasn’t immoral, but then again, it wasn’t concealed to the rapist himself, who is also a human being that shares moral values with the rest of the society (even though may like to rape). To him it is immoral and he knows it (and will account for it himself, and will hurt him ever after);

    b) If he doesn’t know or does not accept this moral value, then no immorality occurred, for the only person accounting this immoral action would have been himself;

    c) Notice though that what makes you say that this is “absurd” is the paradoxical position we are in, for we are postulating a rape. In this sense, we are “witnesses” of it, and thus the action itself becomes immoral (for we are moral agents). But once again, this does not occur before that;

    d) That is, the paradox (the absurdity) happens when we posit an action that has no witnesses while we are intelectually witnessing it;

    e) There is no one that can actually know the future, and thus, no one really knows if this action can be concealed perfectly, nor can really predict if his actions will be without suffering. Hence, while suffering may have been avoided by sheer luck or careful planning, the decision was still a bad one, for it contained the possibility of creating suffering, even if it didn’t actually;

    f) This is beside the point; you stated that what is wrong is what causes unhappiness and a dead person doesn’t have emotions.

    There are many scenarios we are discussing. I was invoking one in which the victim had people that cared about him, or one where the rapist is someone with a conscience.

    g) The prime point of “raping” without bad consequences is really an oxymoron in almost every case imaginable, and in everyone an impossible decision to take, for it takes for granted things that aren’t in anyone’s power to determine.

    Thanks.

  147. So Hitchens faltered, he was ill prepared and Craigs delivery was solid. Does this make Craig right?

    No.

  148. Doug Geivett Says:

    Hi Matt,

    The challenge, if you disagree with Craig, is to identify a flaw in his reasoning.

  149. Well, a good place to start is Craig’s baseless claim that science posits that universe sprang from a state of nothingness. Science says no such thing.

  150. Doug, please point out where he has reasoning instead of assertion and I’ll give it a stab.

  151. Luis Dias Says:

    Doug, I’ve found out a big flaw in Craig’s moral argument reasoning.

    He states that objective morals couldn’t exist without a god, but never proves the assertion.

    Again, it is just an unfounded assertion of design. Because no one can figure out how morals can come about naturally (not true, but for the sake of argument), then “goddidit”.

    I think all the arguments for god can be summed up as this god-of-the-gaps argument.

    The same could be said of the creation of the universe, as well pointed out by Jake. Nowhere is said that the universe came about from a state of nothingness, nor can it ever be said anything like that.

    Curiously, there are some prospects that String Theory, when “figured out”, could give us a good picture of the universe “before” the big bang (take “before” with the caveat that perhaps time didn’t exist “before” the big bang, but that’s a sign on how queer quantum mechanics is, not on the lack of soundness of positing something “before” the big bang).

  152. Doug Geivett Says:

    I sense your enthusiasm, Luis, but it isn’t as simple as you suggest.

    (1) Repeating the “God-of-the-gaps” rejoinder to every theistic argument is evidence of special pleading.
    (2) There are gaps, and then there are GAPS. Not all anomalies are equal in their metaphysical implications.
    (3) It could as easily be said that naturalists, who have no compelling argument that naturalism is true, invoke a “naturalism-of-the-gaps,” or even a “mysticism-of-the-gaps.” Some naturalists do this openly (Colin McGinn explicitly acknowledge this with regard to the problem of human consciousness, for example).
    (4) Naive scientism ignores the significance of metaphysical arguments, thinking there must be some “scientific argument” for every conclusion and a “scientific explanation” for every phenomenon. This cuts the legs from under scientific practice and leads to shabby scientific practice.
    (5) It is increasingly clear that scientism is a religious attitude and not a neutral and objective intellectual stance.
    (6) So-called scientific theories that are considered candidates for replacing the big bang cosmology are almost completely mathematical constructs. Physicists who acknowledge this can hardly even explain what this means, much less what it means regarding the status of their “theories,” and why they should be taken seriously when they are empirically vacuous.
    (7) Explaining the origin of time is going to be a pretty serious challenge for science. What is science if not an enterprise whose scope is inherently tied to the spatio-temporal realm? What you’re suggesting would not be science, but something so “spooky” that materialists, physicalists, most contemporary naturalists, should (by their own standards) shun like the plague.
    (8) It won’t do to talk of the queerness of quantum physics as an excuse for the sake of salvaging naturalism. It can’t be so queer that it’s unintelligible or incoherent, since it’s being used to explain something else that is mysterious.
    (9) The Origin of the Universe (including time) is not your garden-variety quantum event. So it’s specious to extrapolate from what is “observed” at the quantum level within the universe to some First Quantum Event. Garden-variety quantum events, insofar as they are understood at all, occur under physical conditions governed by physical causal laws.
    (10) It sounds like your reason for asserting that Craig does not “prove” his claim about the link between God and ethics is that the only evidence, argument, or proof you accept is “scientific,” in some yet to be defined (and defended) sense.

  153. Luis Dias Says:

    Doug, thanks for the feedback.

    I’ll sketch mine and I think I’ll end it. It starts to feel as a never ending tautology :D, but I guess this debate will always be so, due to the nature of it (yes, got to make a little materialistic gotcha into that sentence).

    (1) It doesn’t matter if it is repeated or not, I’m just stating how the moral argument stands. It’s stated, naturalism (as Craig understands it, note) cannot account for morality, therefore only an external source can, therefore God. It always starts with the presumption that natural forces aren’t sufficient to explain morality, but of course this is merely asserted out of ignorance of such theories, whose first principles and ideas are already produced by science;

    (2) Doesn’t matter;

    (3) Naturalism is different from supernaturalism, in the sense that I can see nature, and that counts a lot. If someone posits a theory in which all that is visible is enough to explain what is happening and the other has to postulate a “super”naturalism, the first one wins. Always, think about it;

    (4) I think you are not aknowledging the “idea” of science. Science is an objective method to acquire knowledge. It’s only that. If you can do it without making equations and dress white coats, fine by me. The problem with theologian methaphysics is that it is completely subjective, and everyone has his very own methaphysics. It has to be this way, for there is no objective external method of deciding who’s right and who’s wrong;

    (5) Hubris is a sin, yes, and it may get religious. I find it funny that you use the term “religious” as a perjorative one. Freudian slip maybe?

    (6) String Theory is not “vacuous” at all. While it has been laughed at by many scientists, it remains the best candidate for a TOE, and it has produced a lot of amazing, brilliant science. This is not platonism. Furthermore, the LHC will bring good light unto it;

    (7) “Spooky” things have been already discovered by science, it’s quite routine now. Consider the “observer effect”, for instance, if you want to fry your brains out :). It makes no sense at all, and yet, the theory works like a charm;

    (8) Quite the opposite, QM is queer, and if the universe started with a Big Bang, it started in a singularity “point”. But there are no “points” in the universe, for in miniscule scales, QM is king, and yes, it is queer.

    So I’m not evading, I’m stating a mere fact. The kickstart of the universe is still outside the realms of our understanding of it, and surely of our “common sense”;

    (9) The problem is the definition of the singularity, and while there are QM mechanisms, it isn’t solved. And the Bing Bang was exactly not “one garden-variety quantum event”, it was probably the most complex event ever considered by QM;

    (10) No. See (3). Occam’s razor is enough for me, as it is what I also do with ghost theories, UFO theories, etc. (not comparing thematics, only methods of dismissing unfalsifiable theories).

    Best,
    Luis

  154. Luis,

    You’re right, this has to end somewhere.

    (1) Craig’s point is that the naturalist has yet to produce a satisfactory account of the objectivity of morality. That is an assertion, of course. But more important, it’s an invitation to the naturalist to produce a viable explanation. If the naturalist has one, then it’s “game on” and Craig will need to respond. Mind you, the naturalist explanation should be superior to any theistic explanation.

    (2) It does matter. Science is in principle ill-prepared to deal with “gaps” of a certain kind. It simply isn’t plausible to think that science will explain the phenomena of the origin of the universe, first life, human consciousness, the resurrection of Jesus, etc. I develop this point more fully in my chapter on “The Evidential Value of Miracles,” in a book I co-edited with Gary Habermas: In Defense of Miracles. And science can’t explain the success of science, or why knowledge is possible by means of scientific practice.

    (3) Your conception of science in this point is in conflict with your affinity for the invisible in science (like quanta).

    (4) You cannot do science without making certain metaphysical commitments. So your argument undermines the value of science.

    (5) I’m not using “religious” in a pejorative sense, here. I’m calling attention to the religious character of the ideology of scientism.

    (6) So you agree that scientists disagree about something so fundamental. What explains the disagreement?

    (7) So “spooky” is OK with you. Just wanted to know, since some in the scientism camp object to the existence of immaterial minds on the grounds that they’re too spooky.

    (8) If QM is unintelligible or incoherent, then it is no use trying to explain something else in terms of QM.

    (9) My point, exactly. So all bets are off as to what sort of event the Big Bang was, insofar as a physical description is concerned. QM does not clearly apply.

    (10) It’s still not clear what you think science is.

    Good chat! See you.

  155. Doug,
    I think you meant to say in point #4 that you cannot do science without making certain metaphysical commitments. As it reads right now, you said you can.
    Tim

  156. Right you are, Tim. Thanks to you, I’ve corrected it.

  157. Luis Dias Says:

    Doug, I said I would finish, but I’ve read your reply and wanted only to correct some ambiguous things:

    (3) I can see and measure atoms, even if only by using instruments. I could even say that without any instrument at all, I cannot see (the eye as an instrument);

    (4) That is right, you cannot do anything without commiting yourself to something. That doesn’t require anything supernatural, only, gasp, brains, competition and time! I’ll explain. If you have someone who posits that commitment and other who doesn’t (believes the universe is unintelligible), the first will always come up with something interesting about the universe, while the latter will always come up with pseudo-poetic babble. The first will always be more interesting than the second. Self-selection applies, science emerges.

    Anyway, this has more to do with the usefulness of religion than of its truth (religion as prosthesis)

    (6) Most cosmologists hope that ST will prove itself to be a good theory. Many others are in the sidelines frustrated with it, for they don’t see how it can be tested in the foresseable future;

    (7) Spooky is fine if proven beyond any doubt. Spooky in QM has been thoroughfully tested because scientists hated it for so long. Not only it is “spooky”, as it is measured with an astonishing precision.

    Doesn’t excuse “ordinary” spookiness. In order to “ordinary” spookiness to be valid, it has to have the same amount of checking QM has had;

    (8) It’s not unintelligible, it’s queer, that is, it works in a very different way from what we are used to in our ordinary lifes. It’s logic is different. It’s not unintelligible.

    (9) Therefore, Goddidit? That’s God of the Gaps in a nutshell.

    (10) Science doesn’t require theleological explanations. It simply emerges out of an organized society of intelligent beings, with an interest for the cosmos.

    Now I promise I go away!!!! Thanks

    Luis

  158. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    It seems to me that dragging a debate into the mire of absurdity that always results from a discussion of this type is worth the inevitable criticism from those who would like to hear answers. Craig’s arguments are nothing new and the responses to them are equally ancient. Any one of them can easily be reduced to the simple belief that they are nonsensical. In other words, throw any good argument for God’s existence out and you will eventually get an equally good argument for nonexistence. Hitchens was quite correct in not going down that road. It’s boring, only appeals to a small segment of academia and has been done to death a million times over.

    For example: everything has a cause therefore so must the universe and therefore that cause must be a prime mover. Even accepting the argument as legitimate it does nothing to advance the discussion. One side will come down in favour of God and the other will not. Neither will be able to prove the truth of their perspectives and, in all likelihood, are discussing a point no human has ever fully understood or is even in a position to dispute.

    What I saw was Craig trying to force Hitchens to play the game by his rules and Hitchens refusing to do so. I am not surprised by this as both are fairly consistent in their approaches to debates of this kind. Hitchens does not view the subject as belonging to any one field of study while Craig seems to believe, as many philosophers do, that questions of this sort should only be discussed in terms of philosophy.

    Anyway, putting all of that aside, I should offer something of my own view. Atheism is frequently held to be some sort of opposition to God. I do not see it this way. Atheism is a reaction to a relatively new worldview that has yet to prove its validity. In other words, theism is the new kid on the block and as such is required to provide evidence for its ideas. Atheism simply questions the evidence offered by the theistic side.

    Put better still, atheists are the people that have not been convinced by any of the evidence put forth by theists. In terms of what atheism means I can go no further without making assumptions I do not wish to make.

  159. Hi, Paul. Thank you for jumping into the conversation. Here are my initial thoughts about your proposals:

    (1) This was a debate, after all. So debate method is appropriate. There are rules of debate, and Craig followed a standard practice. Of course, not everyone is interested in debate. That’s fine.

    (2) You seem to think that long-standing arguments for a position are rendered futile simply because they are long-standing. But the soundness of an argument does not change over time.

    (3) Minds are changed by the exchange of ideas and the consideration of arguments for competing worldviews. You’re making an argument in your comment, and you may succeed in persuading some readers of this post.

    (4) Since you don’t say what you mean by “prove,” I’m not sure what you mean when you say, “Neither will be able to prove the truth of their perspectives.” I’m puzzled by this because I have no idea how you could know this.

    (5) I don’t think it really matters who is the new kid on the block. I think this figure of speech doesn’t capture what is salient. If you’re interested in the truth on the question of God’s existence, then you’ll want to consider all relevant evidence, for and against. Any atheist, or theist, for that matter, can beg off and leave it to the other to make his or her case to his satisfaction. I’m not into that. I prefer a discussion with people who agree that this is an important question, that it matters what’s true, and that the best way to get at or approximate the truth is to consider the relevant evidence for and against.

    (6) I think it’s risky for you to speak for all atheists.

  160. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    1) A format, agreed upon by both parties, is necessary. Beyond that either side can argue in any way they see fit. Craig preferred traditional arguments which of course have the advantage, like all arguments from faith, of being irrefutable. I do not pretend to know the mind of Hitchens (see what I did there?) but I strongly suspect he knows full well nothing has been resolved by hundreds of years of such debates, recognizes their futility and prefers to make his points in the time he has. I don’t blame him. Craig’s game is as old as the debate itself. Bog the other down in arguments that have no answer. Why play it?

    2)An argument that has no answer is not necessarily sound. This is the fallacy that leads people to kill over religion and seems to lead many people to believe they are much more intelligent than they really are. Being able to stand up and say “riddle me this Batman” and then laughing hysterically when your opponent cannot answer does not make your point sound, it makes you a bad actor. Craig’s arguments are no more sound than my assertion that cheese is the root of all evil. He simply knows he can bog Hitchens down in the endless mire of philosophy and score a victory or a draw simply by doing so. It is to Hitchens’ credit he did not play into Craig’s hands.

    3)Great.

    4)These men are not debating the salmon population of a river, they are debating the existence of God. There are no answers to be had at this stage in our existence and both Craig and Hitchens know it. Did you seriously expect to hear infallible arguments or were you expecting Hitchens to come up with witty new challenges to positions held/clung to for hundreds if not thousands of years? Let’s be clear, if Craig does not have to bring anything original to the table neither does Hitchens.

    5)I do not agree with your view on the nature of the God debate. First, I have never seen anything that I would even vaguely call evidence for or against the existence of God. Second, it is my opinion that those who believe in a supernatural caregiver have made a claim they cannot back up despite having had thousands of years of time to do their darndest. In fact it is amazing to me how normally scientific minds can ignore their own methods on these questions. Any hypothesis having had hundreds of years to prove itself or even produce some evidence for itself would long since have been rejected in favour of more promising research. Since when is “you can’t prove that my ideas are wrong” the beginning of the scientific method?

    6)Let me worry about that.

  161. Paul,

    (5) First, you seem to contradict yourself: “theism” is the new kid on the block, AND theists have had ages to make their case. Which is it? Second, the first sign of a biased commentator is that he thinks there is NO evidence for the position he rejects.

    (6) OK, let me put it this way, then. You don’t speak for all atheists, either in your definition of atheism, in your assessment of the evidence on balance, or in your conception of the value of this long-debated topic. This is simply a factual claim and not a piece of advice.

  162. Hi Paul,
    I’ll add one more.
    2) “Soundness” is a term of art in logic; it has a very precise meaning. If you want to challenge the soundness of one of Craig’s arguments, you need to be specific about where the problem lies.

  163. Luis Dias Says:

    Tim, thats easy. The soundness of his arguments lie on the pressuposition that his definitions of “Causality”, “Prime Mover”, “Objective Morals” and even “God”, are not only well defined but also perfectly established.

    Case in point, they aren’t at all. Therefore, the kind of conversation that Paul was rightly irritated at is nothing much more sane than that of discussing the number of angels that can dance on top of a pin head.

  164. Hello Luis,
    When Craig uses these notions and terms in his arguments, he doesn’t leave room for guessing what he’s talking about. He defines what he means by ‘God’ and ‘objective morals’. ‘Prime mover’ doesn’t appear in any of his arguments, to my knowledge. And ‘causality’ can be given a pretty clear ostensive definition.

  165. Luis Dias Says:

    Tim, again, I didn’t say that they weren’t well defined, I postulated that they aren’t perfectly established, and sorry for the “Prime Mover”, I am obviously referring to the “First Cause”, or “Uncaused Cause”, or any other babble you often hear from apologetics.

    To start to discuss what “God” can or can not do, what is consistent or not, pressuposes that the terms are even definable, when “God” himself is also usually defined as “innefable”, which means that everything is possible beyond comprehension, ergo, no logic can either prove or disprove his existence, nor even understand him.

    To this end, when I start hearing people trying to seriously defend what God can or can not do, pictures of kids debating what Superman can or cannot do against Batman comes to mind immediately.

    This is probably why Hitchens was right on not taking him on that pathway. If the God’s question is to be answered, this is not the way. Rather, one should look into the consequences of such beliefs into the objective world, and test them in that place, in an inductive manner.

  166. Voltaire Says:

    Regardless of how well Craig crafted deductive arguments, the fact of the matter is he is wrong. Perhaps he’d be better off debating an atheistic philosopher if you want such formal argumentation. Its all superflous verbiage which seeks to cover the fact that religious belief is superstitious, inconsistent, contradictory, and at times arbitrary. I agree that the fact that the universe appears to obey laws is mind-blowing, and that there are many things that may be unknowable, but to somehow go from that to saying that a personal good exists who cares about you, and apparently intervenes at seemingly arbitrary times, and sits back and allows innocent people suffer–well that’s wishful thinking.

  167. Hi “Voltaire,”

    I’m glad you’ve dropped in. It would be valuable to have an argument from you for one or more of your assertions.

  168. Luis,
    Sorry, I must’ve misunderstood how your remark about “well-definedness” related to your charge of unsoundness. I’m not familiar with “perfect establishment,” or how that relates to soundness either. More generally, though, I’m not sure why the talk of definitions right now. An argument is unsound IF AND ONLY IF it makes an invalid inference, contains a false premise, or both.

  169. Luis Dias Says:

    Tim, it is unsound to use the term “God” as if it was clear and defined from the term that “God” postulates “Objective Moral Facts” or something to that order. In sound logic, it could be that way or the other, for if “God” is an ineffable concept, then you can not infer anything about “God” in a “logic” way. It’s impossible. Like I said, it’s like children debating the superpowers of Galactus.

  170. Luis Dias Says:

    PS: To prove my point, I can also play that “game”, here’s my own argument:

    1. Objective Moral Values are True;
    2. If Morals come from God, then they are Subjective (subject to God);
    Therefore, God does not exist.

    QED!

    :D

  171. Hey Luis,

    I’m happy to see the discussion here between you and Tim continuing. I’m monitoring the comments with interest (and also to ensure that they continue to reflect mutual respect when there is fundamental disagreement). But I would like to say that the “ineffability” of the godhead need not be interpreted in the way you seem to stipulate. In fact, many theists, myself included, believe that God is know-able. To be sure, there is much about God that will remain beyond our cognitive grasp.

    -Doug

  172. Hi Luis,
    I’ll echo Doug’s reply to the issue of ineffability. Moreover, I think propositions (or statements) about God are capable of being either true or false, and as such, can be employed in deductive arguments in the same way that propositions about anything else can–statements about God are treated no differently. For this reason, I disagree that it’s impossible to argue about God using logic. If you disagree with me here, I’d appreciate an argument. As such, there’s no game-playing on my part. I’m just evaluating arguments according to the rules of logic.

    Now, regarding your argument, it differs from any that Craig offers for the existence of God in that it’s invalid, and pretty plainly so. That is, its conclusion doesn’t follow from its premises. I’m also inclined to deny premise (2). I’m not sure exactly what you mean, but it sounds to me that you have some strong version of divine command theory in mind; but I, like many theists, find strong divine command theory implausible.

    Replies like mine (i.e., arguing for the falsity of a premise or showing some inference invalid) are what I’m hoping to see you offer in response to Craig’s arguments. To do a fair job of this, you’ll need to state the arguments accurately and then deal in specifics about exactly where the problem lies.

  173. Luis Dias Says:

    Hello, long time. Just to say that I’ve seen the debate now that it is on youtube, and I must say that I am appalled at the level of criticism that Hitchens has had in this thread and others, apparently some atheist ones.

    I thought Craig was completely bad. Very very bad points. Utterly wrong.

    And Hitchens understood the moral question even better than Craig ever did, and I ever did, so I renounce to what I said earlier in my defense of “objective morals without god”, for it is irrelevant for this debate.

    Hitchens understands perfectly well what are objective moral values and simply dismisses the importance of its existence. What if morals are not “objective”? He is perfectly sound on his equation and Craig only has to offer against this misrepresentation (his misrepresentation on what “Atheism” is was also laughable, at one point he ridicules Hitchens’ version of atheism for apparently being A-Theism, yes it was that bad, and he repeated it twice!), as I said, only has to offer a misrepresentation – Hitchens must concede God exists because Hitchens “obviously” believe objective morality exists, which he did not at all concede (in fact Hitchens politely refers to Craig that “Objective” was not a very common term, that he was referring to “Absolute”, which renders what Craig was saying as more ostensibly religious than “objective” that seems so scientific), or a strawman, Morals only exist if objective.

    Basically I think that Hitchens was a little nervous and was not in his best, but got better over time. But what went wrong for him was that the audience was simply not at his level. Apparently, because of the way Craig was speaking, his philosophy seemed to the untrained thinker as profound, but at points, it just was completely ridiculous, as when Craig refers to Evolution as a “miracle”, quoting bizarre “probabilities” (showing that a theologian should just leave the interpretation of probabilities with the experts) that was so stupid that even Hitchens gave a big smile at it.

    The only points that gave Craig any respect was when he first said that he didn’t want to go into the “secular made more deaths than religious” debate because he was interested in the truth, not in the outcomes of it (but then, as Hitchens had already pointed out, “truth” for Craig is attested better by testimonies of miracles rather than by cold evidence, so it’s a version of “Truth” that I despise and laugh at), and when he said that the problem of evil is that no one fully knows if evil is really a necessary condition for the world to exist or not, and if such possibility exists, then it is not a disproof of God.

    Of course, it’s a cop out, but at least it’s honest.

    All in all, good debate, Hitchens kicked ass, he deserved a more intelligent audience than that.

  174. Luis Dias Says:

    If you disagree with me here, I’d appreciate an argument.

    You just asserted that it is possible, Tim. But to you and Daig, it is not possible to both claim that God is ineffable and “knowable” without setting aside logic in the first place. You can do that, but if you do, then there’s no really any point in debating, for that requires logic in order to do so.

    And what is a weak divine command theory? Either it is a command theory or not. If you state tertium datur, then you don’t really know if what you’re defending in morals is really true or not, and you’re just as good as a moral relativist.

    But this is a subtlety that escapes you, I’m sure.

  175. Hello, again, Luis.

    There were other philosophers in the room and I can assure you there weren’t many (if any) who thought Craig was deliberately faking out the audience with high-sounding mumbo jumbo.

    I heard people say that Hitchens was nervous at times. I didn’t think that myself. He was sweating quite a lot, but that’s something he does.

  176. Luis,

    I’m happy to see you and Tim crossing swords on the issue you address again in your note dated and time-stamped 2009/06/18 at 11:38. But I very nearly deleted your comment rather than approving it for others to read. Because of the standards I seek to maintain for discussion at this website, I think I should explain so that it’s better understood by all visitors.

    All but the last line of your message is unquestionably passable. But the last line crosses the line. It is an ad hominem attack against one of my visitors. If a student said this in class, I would ask him to leave the room.

    I caution against smack talk, even in its milder permutations. It’s liable to foster an opinion of the speaker that the speaker believes to be false. But impressions are impressions. I, for one, would discontinue conversation with anyone who persisted in addressing me that way.

    This post about the Craig-Hitchens debate is one of the most heavily trafficked posts on my blog. Despite the deplorable state of so much internet blathering and excoriation of others on the God question, I’m pleased to say that everyone entering the discussion here has contributed, agreeing and disagreeing respectfully. I regret that one comment was submitted that I had to delete. But it pleases me that it has so far been only one.

  177. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    I think Luis is making a very valid point here about the nature of the arguments that Craig presented. I think though that the discussion requires clarification on some key points. Here goes:

    1) As Luis and myself have already pointed out, Craigs arguments are somewhat compelling (possibly even persuasive) but have definite limits. I will not go into more detail because I believe Luis has made it clear where those limits are found. I, however, would like to take things a step further and say that Hitchens’ arguments are essentially of the same nature: persuasive but by no means irrefutable. I have absolutely no reservation stating that anyone who does not see the limited nature of the arguments presented in this debate has not fully thought them through or is not intellectually honest.

    2) I may or may not agree with a particular point made by either speaker but by agreeing or disagreeing I do not prove anything. For example, I can agree that God’s sudden intervention in Bronze Age Palestine seems suspect or I can agree that objective moral values are only possible through the existence of some kind of guiding force but by doing so I have only stated that I find a particular argument persuasive or I do not.

    3) Even if I agree with every single argument put forth by one speaker or the other I still would not have grounds to claim I have evidence for or against any particular hypothesis. In fact, all I would have is a belief in absence of evidence. All I would be is persuaded.

    4) Any hypothesis must be testable and those tests must provide evidence in order for us to arrive at a theory. Viewed properly, every single argument presented in this debate is simply an hypothesis. Without being scientifically verifiable none of them will ever progress beyond that point.

    5) There is, at this point in human existence, not a single complete theory. In other words, there is no phenomena that we absolutely understand down to its finest inner workings. All of them are subject to revision based on further evidence.

    6) Some arguments are extremely compelling but no matter how persuasive I find them if I cannot test their predictions I cannot take them any further. I can only not dismiss them and wait for more evidence to appear.

    Now, why do I say all of this? This debate is nothing more than an attempt by both speakers to persuade listeners. Neither side has conclusive evidence and as such can only do their best to be as compelling as possible. Put differently, both sides are doing their utmost to make a point in lieu of actual evidence.

    I find it necessary to say this because it appears to me that a great many thinkers confuse this sort of debate with what happens in the scientific community. Allow me to be clear, it is not science and if there is a connection to the scientific method it is only coincidental.

    I am perfectly willing to admit that I see several flaws in Hitchens’ arguments. I am equally willing to admit that I see the same flaws in Craigs’ arguments. In fact, I can reduce all of them to a single flaw. That being: both of them are relying on nothing more than logic in a question that has almost no foundation for testable predictions. I would think a single glance at the history of human thinking would be enough to show just how far from the truth we can get when we follow that path.

    There is only one question to be asked here. It is: who has the burden of proof? I find it odd that neither party, having the burden of proof, would be able to provide a shred of evidence for their hypothesis, but having said that I see no way to even hold this discussion without first answering and then agreeing on the answer to this question.

  178. [...] According to even the atheist blogosphere, Craig won. You can find an interesting analysis of the debate here. [...]

  179. Luis Dias Says:

    No problem Doug, I understand your censorship and appreciate it. It keeps things civilized.

    I should have said, this is a subtlety that escaped you (period)

    My frustration comes in the intuition that my point won’t be understood but recognize that was out of line a bit.

    I do think Hitchens was pretty nervous, not by his sweating, but by his uncoherent ramblings in his first two addresses. He’s usually better than this, and there were sometimes where even I was confused at where he was getting at. But I know his points from other debates, and so I understood at what he was trying to get at. He was as nervous as a good student always is when making an oral exam (?) without having fully prepared the speech.

    Mumbo Jumbo are basically all the arguments he presented. The moral argument was a straw man, the ontological argument is bollocks, the cosmological argument is an appeal to ignorance (because you don’t know how this happened, goddidit) and a fabrication (quoting a scientist that said that before the big bang there was no space. Of course he forgot to mention that such assertion wasn’t the scientific “truth”, but an hypothesis, a speculation about the nature of space-time as having no beggining at all, so it was a complete abuse of the quotation).

    I’m not even starting on the Jesus evidence. He thinks (and wrote it in his book as quoted by Hitchens) that testimonies of faith are more valuable than cold hard evidence of facts. This is rendering to wishful thinking overtly. I’m appalled that the audience didn’t “ahhh” to that, as it was supposed to do. It may well be a “philosophical” audience, but I simply don’t recognize their merits (their questions were also very poor).

  180. Luis Dias Says:

    P.S. I think Hitchens is very very good at just “go along with the flow”, making his own speech as he goes along. Perhaps what made him nervous was the lack of response from the audience, that didn’t give him the confidence he needed.

    Just speculatin.

  181. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    One more point I wanted to make the other day is that I do not understand this call for clarification from posters like Tim. Luis has made his points and they have been easily understandable in every case. I find it very strange indeed that other posters keep asking him to make an argument. He’s been doing so for months and has made several in that time.

    With all due respect, Craig’s arguments are nothing new. In fact they and their responses have been thrown back and forth for, in some cases, over a thousand years. Even the relatively new arguments are only slight variations on ideas that were proposed when the Earth was still believed to be flat. They are all as weak as they are strong and are all standard tools in a debate of this kind.

    If you want to know the objections to any of the arguments that Craig presented as evidence jump on Wikipedia for a few minutes and do some reading. It’s all there. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that many of the people participating in this discussion are already well aware of the objections.

    It appeals to me as odd indeed that Luis has gone through the trouble of bringing up a few of these and has gotten as a response that they are either false or unclear. First of all Luis’ objections have as long a history as the arguments they are used to refute and are as clear now as the day they were first uttered hundreds of years ago. Second, they are as logical or illogical and as true or as false as anything uttered by Craig.
    The fact that some are quick to see the value in Craig’s points and apparently completely unable to see the value of the responses strikes me as strange and somewhat indicative of an emotional response. If logic is to be the standard by which these ideas are judged then they are at very best equals.

    Luis is quite right in referring to the argument as a game. If Craig is an intelligent man the flaws in his logic should be immediately apparent even to himself. In fact, if either he or Hitchens actually believe their arguments are foolproof (something which would surprise me very much) I would have to say they are not great thinkers and never will be. The fact that both are reticent to bring up the weaknesses in their own arguments only shows how hard they are trying to either convince themselves or convince their listeners or both.

    I mean come on, let’s think this through. Craig opens with his “evidence” which amounts to virtually every single pro-monotheistic argument ever taken seriously by anyone and then throws in some hotly debated historical tidbits which he claims give him good reason to believe in the resurrection. What would you have Hitchens do at that point? Apparently what you think he should have done in order to “win” this debate is rehash the same tired old responses to the same tired old arguments and then attempt to deny the validity of the resurrection.

    My question is why would he do that? He doesn’t have to. It’s been done a thousand times before by the greatest thinkers this world has ever seen and the argument has yet to reach any conclusion that I can detect. Hitchens instead chose to make his own case in his own way. In this particular debate I didn’t feel he was as effective as I have seen him but that’s beside the point. Hitchens only has a certain amount of time. Wasting it on responding to Craig’s invitation to an endless party does not appeal to me as a very strong tactic.

    I truly do not understand the logic (and the apparent glee) of those that were waiting for answers from Hitchens and when they did not get them declared a victory for Craig. Like I said before, if you want to hear or know the responses to everything Craig said you can find them in a heartbeat.

    No one should be surprised when someone rejects unanswerable questions. Asking them is the oldest trick in the book and attempting to answer them is the surest way to lose a debate.

  182. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    In direct response to comments made by Doug and Tim I offer the following:

    1) Ineffable is defined as incapable of being expressed or described in words; inexpressible. It may or may not be the proper choice of words but I believe Luis’s point remains valid. The concept of God is subjective (as evidenced by the myriad of ways in which humans experience what they describe as their connection to a higher power). If it is a subjective concept it can only be expressed in terms of opinion and not fact. There are no facts where higher powers are concerned. There are only opinions.

    Taking this a step further, what you describe as knowing God can easily be described as you forming an opinion about a concept you agree with. The simple act of doing so is not evidence of anything but rather your expression of an understanding you believe you have attained.

    Also, one very important piece of information that has eluded our cognitive grasp is proof of God’s existence. It should not be surprising then that there a so many opinions about his nature. If we cannot even establish a good reason to believe he exists then why would we expect to be able to understand him.

    2) Tim, it is indeed possible to argue the nature or existence of higher powers with logic. I would be hard pressed to think of any other way to go about answering the question. Unfortunately, as hard as I try I can think of no statement ever uttered about a higher power that can be conclusively shown to be true. Many have been shown to be false over the millenia (i.e. Zeus does not live on Mt. Olympus and Ra does not take the sun across the sky every day in a canoe) but I can think of none that were ever shown to be undeniably true. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    3) You should not be surprised that you believe true-false statements are possible where God is concerned. You are a believer. If you didn’t believe true-false statements were possible you could not be a believer.

    4) The cosmological argument, for example, is often poorly stated but is essentially an argument for a first cause to the universe (i.e. something started it all). Many proponents of the cosmological argument disagree that the argument should ever be extended to the existence of a higher power much less the existence of the Judeo-Christian divinity. They disagree for two good reasons. First, the argument was originally intended to be an argument against infinity. Second, there is no good reason to think that the universe having a root cause implies the existence of an intelligent creator.

    Therefore, if the argument is stated in this way:

    A) The universe had a beginning.
    B) That event caused the universe to exist.
    C) That event was caused by something.
    D) That something was God.

    Logically I have no problem with A, B and C but have an enormous problem with the massive leap represented by D. To not only assume the root cause of the universe was a higher power, but to further assume that higher power is the Judeo-Christian version of God and to go so far as to present this argument as “evidence” seems to me to be about as egregious a failure of logic as I can think of.

    I’m not saying there is no higher power but I am clearly stating that the cosmological argument does nothing to prove its existence.

    I say this because Luis did not make an argument. His chain of logic you reacted to was not intended to be foolproof but was intended to show how similar arguments are constructed and presented as persuasive even with clearly visible gaps in them. I do not want to speak for him but I would imagine his point was to show that his statement is equally as weak as others made by Craig in the debate.

    Now, are you saying that you can see the problems with Luis’ example (which is actually a well-established point often raised in discussions of this kind) but cannot see the complications I raised with the cosmological argument?

    5) You may hope to see Luis respond to you in the way that you would like but I see nothing wrong with the manner in which he has chosen to do so.

    His clear argument since the beginning has been about the futility of arguing about a higher power in this way. Yet no matter how clearly he states this point he is continually asked to structure his arguments in the very same way he is trying to say is useless. You are asking him to do something he does not want or need to do because he has already done it.

  183. Luis Dias Says:

    Thanks Paul for those insights.

    I’d disagree with only one thing of what you’ve said, which is the fact that the debate was a symetrical game between parties that didn’t want to see their fragilities opened.

    I don’t think that at all. I could have thought of that before I saw the debate because I thought Hitchens had not responded to the moral argument as well as he actually did. The assymetry arrives when one party doesn’t deny that “something” as a god may actually exist, but that such question is in fact, pointless. He does not have to show how god does not exist in order to debunk christianity. All he has to do is to undermine the core tenets of Christendom and question its legitimacy, its empirical prowess, its ethics, its use, etc.

    Because Hitchens is the skeptic, it is not legitimate to place on him the same burden of proof as one should place Craig. Of course, a believer may see this otherwise, but only for emotional reasons really. The motion of “God exists and he was JC” is not in the same ballpark as “God does not exist”, a priori and per se.

    Also, the moral argument was well replied, and the fact that Craig didn’t even understood Hitchen’s point is telling (Craig misunderstood Hitchens several times, appalling, I thought Craig was smarter than that). The moral argument hinges on the pressuposition that if morals are objective, and if all observers in the mortal world are subjective, only a true objective person can see them (refers to the Russell’s point: an objective reality needs an objective observer).

    If morality is objective, then god exists. If god does not exist, then objective moral values may not exist at all. Hitchens did reply (youtube took out the debate) something as in “what if objective (as in absolute) moral values do not exist?”. Craig’s “proof” depends on the assumption that objective moral values (in the Russelian terminology) in fact do exist.

    But how do we attest that they do? What is the fundamental evidence that they do? It’s circular reasoning. It’s as if I stated, “The Absolute exists because his Absolute Rules exist”.

    And keep physical “laws” out of the discussion. Physicians rarely name them that way, they mostly refer to them as “symmetries”, not laws (unless they are talking to the general layman, who is more used to judicial terms than aesthetic terms :)).

  184. To You-know-who-you-are:

    The latest comment submitted to this post is so full of venom and malice that I cannot approve it as is. All the ad hom attacks will have to be stripped away, and the name-calling, like ‘buffoon’, ’stupid’, etc.

    Show respect, or don’t show up.

    You might want to review your grammar, as well.

    You know who you are.

    -Doug

  185. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    Number one: If you are going to address me publicly and not allow me to respond in the same way I see no way for you to claim any moral high ground. Will you, for example, even allow this message to be visible?

    Number two: I will make a few small changes if that is what you require, but to be perfectly honest I see your description of my post as grossly exaggerated. Seriously Doug, I called his rebuttal stupid and I suggested the possibility he is a buffoon. Out of line possibly, but hardly venom and malice.

    Number three: Am I allowed to offer opinions of any kind or do you also qualify my opinions about Craig’s debate strategy as ad hominem attacks?

    Number four: Thank you for pointing out that copy/paste error I made in the first paragraph. I will be sure to do the same favour for you should the need arise (and unless you are perfect it most surely will).

  186. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    Here is the modified version of my post:

    Oh and one more thing. Craig’s “2% of humanity before the time of Christ” is about as ineffective and possibly calculated a remark, let alone a counterargument, as I have ever heard. Talk about missing the point completely. In my opinion it was an argument Craig thought would work on an audience he hoped would believe just about anything.

    So what if only 2% of people lived before Christ was born(and by saying that I do not admit he ever was)? Hitchens’ clear point is not about the number of people that suffered through the time before God’s supposed intervention, but rather they lived existences clearly void of any divine charity for an almost unimaginably long period of time. His point comes into its own when he describes how God finally does intervene in possibly the most ineffective manner conceivable.

    It should be noticed Craig’s answer to this argument was that God chose a very effective time since there were more people living on the planet than before. By the same thinking almost any year would be better than the previous. I am sorry to say but this is simply an embarrassing point to make for a man who calls himself a scientist.

    I won’t even raise the point that Hitchens is only referring to homosapiens. If we include other species of primates and, even worse for Craig, other species in general that have never seen God’s intervention in their favour, that 2% changes very very quickly.

    I find it hard to express the amount of disrespect for his audience that Craig showed by even voicing such an opinion. Either he was extremely overconfident, felt it was worth the risk or thought his audience was ready to accept anything. It may also be possible he believed what he said but for his own sake I hope not.

    Don’t even get me started on the objective morals claptrap that Craig spends most of his debating career going on about. The fact is no one knows why we have morals or why we act in many of the ways we do. People have offered hypotheses but the truth is we have no theory yet or, for that matter, a great deal of testable evidence to even get started with. The God of the Gaps strikes again.

    I believe this is why Hitchens is being accused of dropping points in this debate. The fact is Craig can number his arguments all he wants but they are almost all essentially the same: we don’t know the answers, religion offers an explanation therefore that explanation must be true or at least plausible. It’s becoming painfully obvious to me that there are quite a few university educated people out there that are all too willing to forgo the scientific method in questions they have a personal stake in. The result, as seen in this debate, is far from palatable.

    Oh and before I close, Craig was essentially ignored at the Christian Book Expo a few weeks before this debate when he tried to throw these arguments around. No one, not even the other believers, paid any attention to him. Almost all of the questions were for Hitchens, absolutely none were for Craig and not even once did any of the other writers echo or even use a Craig point.

    Lo and behold a few weeks later the stipulation is made, and stressed by the moderator, that all questions are for BOTH speakers to answer. Want to bet who made that suggestion? I have seen Hitchens and others debate dozens of times and I have never seen a moderator stress or even mention this point.

    My guess is, and I would put good money on it, that Craig knew once they got to question period it was game over for him. So, knowing that virtually every question would be for Hitchens, he made sure he would have the ability to get the last word every time without appearing like too much of an apologist. Brilliant move on his part I must admit. Cheap and it shows just how much he put into trying to beat Hitchens, but yes brilliant.

  187. Hi Paul,

    Others may have things to say in response. I want to be brief.

    (1) I think readers need context to know what you’re referring to when you recall an argument that most people haven’t heard. When William Craig mentioned the 2% figure, he was responding to a claim by Hitchens against the God of Christianity. What claim was Hitchens making? You haven’t given readers here any means of evaluating your claim because you don’t recount the argument and counter-argument.

    (2) You seem to be inadequately informed about a few things. First, I’ve never heard Craig call himself a scientist. I’d say you haven’t, either. Second, in debate, when members of the audience ask questions, responses from both debaters is common. I happen to know this from my own experience debating. In fact, just today I replied to a non-theist whom I’ll be debating about the structure of our upcoming debate. This is precisely what he proposed.

    (3) In addition, you’re careless about a couple of factual claims. First, Craig did not claim that religion offers an explanation for this or that. He presented the hypothesis of God’s existence as the best explanation for a range of phenomena. This is a philosophical claim. You may disapprove of philosophy, but you should be careful about conflating it with religion. Second, you’re working with a narrow, and I believe question-begging, conception of science. It strays enough from historical scientific practice to leave you with the burden of proving that you’re right about how science should be practiced.

    (4) For someone who claims to be wholly committed to believing anything only on the basis of empirical evidence, it’s surprising that you presume to read minds—William Craig’s mind, the minds of people in the audience at the debate, the people who directed more questions at Hitchens at another event, and so forth. It is astonishing how speculative you are given the paltry evidence you cite. You do not even consider alternative explanations—which is a natural impulse for objective observers (like the ideal scientist).

  188. Paul,

    I addressed you publicly (though anonymously) because you sent a comment that was intended for public consumption. I’m afraid that’s a risk you take when you visit my blog. I will not be taunted. And if, in my judgment, a comment is sent that is tainted by taunting, I will not post the comment. I’m not claiming moral high ground. I am exercising my prerogative.

    -Doug

  189. Luis, I appreciate the tone of your most recent response and thank you for continuing to leave interesting comments.

    The point about burden of proof is interesting. Here’s how I see it. Take some alleged phenomenon, like the origin of the universe. The question—inherently philosophical—is, “What is the best explanation for the origin of the universe?” The theist offers one response. What is one to say if one rejects this response? “I’m afraid I’m a skeptic and I don’t have to answer that question”? Well, no one has to answer it, of course. But if this argument shows up in a debate you’ve agreed to, it seems you should have some sort of answer. Further, to reject the theist’s hypothesis is a partial answer. A satisfactory answer that includes the rejection of one hypothesis must go further to engage the explanatory value of that hypothesis. Ideally, this includes proposing an alternative hypothesis that explains the same phenomenon, and going on to show why the alternative is a superior hypothesis. (Another option is to deny the alleged phenomenon, offering good reasons for this.)

    Again, this is my view. But it illustrates why I think disagreements about who owns the burden of proof are unproductive and, in a certain sense, irresponsible.

  190. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    Wow, finally some meat to throw on the BBQ. Here goes:

    To Luis:

    First off, if I misinterpreted you at some point I am sorry. I didn’t mean to but was getting frustrated with constant calls for clarification on points which I felt you were making very well. I experienced the same kind of response to my comments and I felt a word or two was in order.

    Second, I think if you read my most recent post you will see that I am in fact arguing along the very same lines that you are describing. Sorry if my original posts were unclear.

    My argument, respectful in its nature, is that both Craig and Hitchens are intelligent men capable of and probably prone to questioning their own logic. It seems very strange to me indeed that either would present “evidence” in a debate of this kind. I do not claim this to be fact, but I strongly suspect both are well aware of the weaknesses in their own arguments and work very hard to present their points as persuasive without being too intellectually dishonest.

    This idea leads me to believe that there is an underlying motive or motives in almost all of what they are saying. In my opinion that underlying motive could be two things: notoriety and/or persuasiveness.

    Better said, Craig has a lot to gain by beating Hitchens in a debate and I think Hitchens has a lot to lose by being defeated by a small timer (perhaps up-and-comer is more apt) like Craig. I know this is hardly pure logic but I, as a rule, never discount the human element from any equation. Subjective as it may be I do not believe any discussion of a human interaction is complete without some questioning of the motives of the participants.

    On the point of physical laws, I only bring them up because I am convinced there is a very strange disconnect between acceptance by rational people of scientific theories based on evidence and religious hypotheses based on supposition that would not normally constitute evidence. In other words, what would normally be required to convince a rational person in almost any other branch of science does not seem to be necessary when religion is involved. This point is entirely subjective but seems to me to be germane to the discussion.

    To Doug:

    With all due respect, I could easily say the same to you. You put a piece of writing out there. You should be open to the reactions that you receive. My comments are open to anyone to reply to in any way they see fit. Your responses were not, in my opinion, respectful in a way that I appreciate. Why did I think this? Because it seemed to me that I took the time to carefully read what you wrote and you did not do me the same favour. If I was wrong about that I apologize but remember that respect is extremely subjective.

    On your points I offer the following:

    1) I assume people contributing to this discussion have seen the debate. I did elaborate on Craig’s argument to some extent but not with the assumption of speaking to someone who is unfamiliar with the subject matter.

    In addition, my comments were directed at both yourself and Tim who both have, as far as I can tell, seen the debate.

    With all due respect, I do not understand or even see the point to this criticism.

    2) Craig can refer to himself in any way he pleases but he is a philosopher, calls himself a doctor and makes scientific claims (or at the very least claims he could only make with some scientific understanding of the subject matter). He cannot do so and later say that his claims are somehow unscientific.

    A philosophical claim can only go so far. Craig’s error, which I strongly suspect was intentional, was to oscillate between opinion offered as a philosophical conclusion and interpretations represented as fact. Some in the theistic community may have missed the distinction but I certainly did not.

    Worse still, he presents his arguments as evidence. I’m sorry but I have to challenge you on this point. If his claims are evidence, as he clearly states them to be, by what criteria do we judge them if not scientific?

    On the point of debate format, my statement was and was framed as an opinion. If we differ I can only say that I respect your opinion and hope you respect mine.

    3) Yes, you are correct. This also appealed to me as Craig’s overall point. However, I disagree strongly with the word narrow. Science has achieved many things and I am hard pressed to think of one that was not done through the scientific method. If I am wrong please correct me on this point. If I am wrong in my appraisal of the scientific method I invite you to present a definition you feel is better.

    On the point of confusing philosophy with religion I can only say that I cannot avoid noticing a fundamental difference in our approaches to this discussion. For me, religious questions are philosophical by nature. In fact, this has been my argument from the get go. If Craig constrained himself to philosophical conclusions I would have very little to say against him, but he did not and therein lies the problem.

    As far as how science should be practiced, it is practiced in one and only one way. A phenomena which requires explanation is observed/perceived. Hypotheses are presented and tested according to predictions. The results of those tests can either lead scientists to accept or not accept any particular hypothesis. After extensive testing and peer review an hypothesis can become a theory. Sometimes of course testing can lead to alternate hypotheses but those hypotheses are subject to the very same process. I am unfamiliar with any other process by which science can be carried out.

    The only argument Craig presented that I view as even vaguely scientific was his historical evidence for the resurrection of Christ. On that point and that point alone I am prepared to offer him and the sources he quoted the benefit of the doubt. The rest was nothing more than conjecture. Conjecture, as it happens, that can neither produce evidence for itself or even suggest where the foundation for testing might be found.

    4) I admit I offer opinions from time to time. When I do I try to preface them with some variation of “in my opinion”. If I forget to do so I am more than willing to clarify when requested to do so. Also, it is not impossible that I confuse belief with fact. My question to you and others is: do you do the same?

    Never one to be left behind I would like to offer a comment on your response to Luis. Here goes:

    The question of the origin of the universe is not “inherently philosophical” but only theoretical at present. To call it inherently philosophical is to say that science, or any other method, will never be able to resolve it. Given what science has already managed to do I would caution against calling anything “inherently philosophical”.

    Furthermore, the theist does not offer any response to the question of the origin of the universe. There is a deistic addition made by some to the cosmological argument but there has yet to be any logical argument made for how that connects to theism. Even if a higher power did create the universe the idea does nothing to advance the hypothesis that the same power cares about humans themselves. The theist can claim that their creator made the universe in their favour, but this is merely a claim and therefore subject to the burden of proof.

    Now, if I agree to a debate and this point is raised I can only do what I have just done and show the flaws in it. I do not have to provide an alternative hypothesis any more than I have to provide one if someone claims that I have gremlins in my laundry room. I am not the one making a claim. I am only showing the problems in the logic with theirs. Whether or not I have an alternative is irrelevant.

    It is far from irresponsible to show that an hypothesis is false. It is the foundation of the scientific method and, if I may, the foundation of every truth humans have been able to ascertain.

  191. Luis Dias Says:

    Doug,

    Well, no one has to answer it, of course. But if this argument shows up in a debate you’ve agreed to, it seems you should have some sort of answer.

    Then you are seeing it wrong, Doug. That is the starting point of conspiracy theories, not of a reasonable method of inquiry. Sometimes, “I don’t know” is both the most honest and best answer one can possibly give. I agree, it is not easy to accept humbly that we don’t know, but we must have that courage and honesty. Imagine we are cavemen arguing thunderstorms and the believer will state something in the order of,

    -”Thunderstorms exist and they are both terrifying and magnificent, the sheer power of it! They are surely the evidence of a God!”

    The skeptic kicks in:

    -”Well, not really. We don’t know how thunderstorms come about, but they could come about without a God”
    -”How so? Give me evidence of this! How is it not created by God?”
    -”Well, I can’t give you evidence that it is not, because I don’t know how it works”
    -”Ah, well therefore we are at least tied in this point, and I claim superiority on the grounds that at least I give an answer!

    Such is not the case however. The fact that the caveman was incapable of understanding thunderstorms didn’t validate the believer’s hypothesis one bit. This is not how our socratic and scientific method works. We postulate hypothesis, we are the ones who have the burden to explain them. How is it so, and how can I prove them wrong (falsifiability, Popper). If you can’t falsify them, it becomes a platonic exercise and everything is possible, which the sheer variety of metaphysical claims should testify for.

    Ideally, this includes proposing an alternative hypothesis that explains the same phenomenon, and going on to show why the alternative is a superior hypothesis.

    In this case, there are multitudes of explanations. One of them implies a multiverse, for example. Speculations abound, and they aren’t metaphysical wanderings, they are physical speculations that have empirical consequences. The reason why they are all superior to the God hypothesis is because they are, in principle, testable. Whenever they aren’t testable at all, they lose credit. Science itself abolishes our need of metaphysics.

    PS: Paul, come on chill out man! Had a bad day? Here’s a thought to you: it is just as easy for anyone to misrepresent incompetence and take it as fraudulent action as it is for one to succumb to conspiracy theories, or religion for that matter. I believe Craig is honest. He’s just not very smart or he’s too brainwashed by his metaphysics.

    But even if he wasn’t, I don’t see the need to jump into conclusions about his intentions. It is really irrelevant for the debate in question. Debate the points, not the debaters.

  192. Luis, the many-worlds, or multiverse, hypothesis is brought in to explain apparent design at the level of natural laws governing the behavior of our universe. They aren’t posited to explain how this universe was caused to exist. Nor could they.

  193. Paul,

    (1) Your conception of science, as any conception of science must be, is itself inherently philosophical.

    (2) Gremlins are by no means a legitimate analog. If we agree that the universe had a beginning, then we are not disagreeing about something like the existence or non-existence of gremlins in your laundry room. We are agreeing about what is to be explained. I offer a theistic explanation on philosophical grounds. What is it that you offer instead?

    -Doug

  194. Luis,
    I’ll say a few things in reply to your June 18, 2009 post.

    In my post from May 30–the last one I submitted–be aware that I *denied* ineffability as stipulated by you. I never affirmed it. You should aim your criticism toward someone who actually holds to the notion of ineffability you describe.

    Back to our discussion, if you want to deny a conclusion of a deductive argument (such as that employed by the natural theologian), there two and only two ways to do so (if you want to do so rationally, that is): deny a premise or show invalidity.

    As to your comments on divine command theory, you’re right: necessarily, p or not-p; either something’s a command theory or it’s not. You and I are of one mind there. But there are different species of divine command theories. Your criticism is only of certain strong forms of divine command theory. There are also weak forms. And yes, subtle distinctions do sometimes escape me. (Who told you this? Was it my wife?) I can tell you though that that’s not happening here though and now it should be clear why.

  195. Hello there Paul,

    My reply just now to Luis regarding ineffability is for you, too. For the record, I am *within* the camp that thinks propositions about God stand in logical relations to other propositions. I.e. I, like you, deny that God is somehow “above logic.” This in fact allows me to accuse Luis’s earlier parody of Craig’s argument of being an effete reply—his argument parody is invalid whereas Craig’s Moral Argument (the one he was parodying) is not.

    Now a methodological point. It’s up to you (though not advisable) to use a dictionary definition against your interlocutor with respect to some issue. But then it’s always up to him to deny that he holds the view described by the dictionary’s definition. So, for example, you say, “The dictionary definition of ‘ineffability’ is such-and-such.” And he replies, “Hmmm….well, I don’t hold that view, then.” You may bring up dictionary definitions all day long, but if you’re going to find problems with your interlocutor’s views, you’d better make sure they’re views that either (1) he holds or (2) are implied by views that he holds. Otherwise, you just end up shooting at the wrong target, as you did in an earlier reply to me on ineffability.

    As for your other lengthy comments on Craig’s arguments, I will wait to find a convenient jumping in point. There’s just too much to reply to.

  196. Luis and Paul,

    If you’re unfamiliar with all this talk of deductive validity and why it’s so important, I saw recently, at another epistemologist’s blog, a post called A Catechism of Logic. I suppose it captures in a charming way the importance we, as rational agents, should give to evaluating arguments in the proper way.

    If you’re interested, you can find it here http://thisisthenameofthisblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/catechism-of-logic.html#links

  197. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    Doug:

    1) I’ve described the mechanism by which science works. Without that mechanism science achieves nothing. With it science achieves wonders. Call that philosophical if you will, but the results are as tangible as anything I can think of. Even better said, ignoring the scientific method produces silliness like astrology and creationism.

    2) I disagree. You are a believer in the existence of something you seem to claim explains observable phenomena. There are many believers in the world that believe in contradictory explanations for the same phenomena. Either everyone is wrong or someone is right. The obvious follow on question is: if you have decided who is right does that decision provide you with enough evidence to build a belief system, influence the lives of millions, kill in the name of your chosen explanation, etc.? You tell me.

    Simply put I offer two possibilities. The first is that you are wrong and your hypothesis is false. The second is that there is absolutely no evidence worthy of the word sufficient to make a decision either way.

    In either case I am not required to offer an alternative and my analogy stands. You may not want to equate your deity with other imaginary and/or discredited suggestions (witches come to mind) but given the long, long, long list of discredited human beliefs I would think you would be less careless.

    Remember, if you argue for a higher power you are on safer ground. The problems arise when you try to define that power as something you have a relationship with.

    To Luis:

    Sound advice and worthy of thought. It’s always a danger for anyone to be too overzealous when discussing these topics. In my defence, as purely logical as I would like to be, I never ignore the human factor in any discussion. I did try to accuse Hitchens and Craig of the same charges if that counts for anything.

  198. Luis Dias Says:

    Luis, the many-worlds, or multiverse, hypothesis is brought in to explain apparent design at the level of natural laws governing the behavior of our universe. They aren’t posited to explain how this universe was caused to exist. Nor could they.

    The multiverse answer would provide an answer where there wasn’t a “beggining” per se. There are others (Smolin’s evolutionary universes comes to mind, but its fading in its fandom) as well.

    But the problem is more profound than this. What I am arguing is that for every problem, we can have multiple answers. If all science and philosophy all made thus far isn’t entirely incorrect, it’s perfectly reasonable to expect only one of them is true, and probably we still didn’t even imagined it yet.

    But if we are in a position in which we don’t know the answer, it is irrelevant if there comes a person claiming that “X” did it, and that’s the right answer, because the other people haven’t figured out a comprehensive definite answer. It’s inadmissible in a dialogue for these kinds of things being said.

    So, in the eighteenth century, you’d ask, explain me the variety of this amazing garden of life, you can’t, there’s no materialistic explanation. In the caveman time, you’d ask me the cause of wind, of fire, of thunderstorms. I’d be baffled by this. It’s not an argument, it’s a common fallacy, appeal to ignorance. And yes, it is “God of the Gaps”. You just don’t accept this because you think you found the “ultimate” Gap, one which not even science can take it out from there, and you feel glad by it. I wouldn’t be so optimistic if I were you.

    Also it is worse, because “God Did It” is not presented as a conclusion of a thesis, but as an evidence that God exists. You and others say, God exists because it’s the “best explanation for the universe”, but when someone points out, but hey, you don’t need that explanation, there are others, theists go back and say, well, ok, but you haven’t proved it, so it is a very good hypothesis at least. But that’s already a concession on your part of the argument, is it not?

    Ultimately, there aren’t any evidences or arguments for this or any other God. Only excuses for its existence. Efforts at compatibilizations. Which is both rather poor and an inevitable trend considering what we’ve learned from this universe.

  199. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    Hello

    In all fairness I should say I have a quasi-religious belief that I feel is worth mentioning. Basically, I find the arguments for the existence of other intelligent life in the universe convincing. Furthermore, for whatever reason, I like very much the idea that we are not alone in the vastness of space. I cannot prove it of course but I draw some solace from my perception that other life forms can be rationally believed to exist without going too far into absurdity.

    This is not an attempt to change the topic. My point is that I believe we are all prone to wishful thinking in one way or another just as we are prone to greed, love, ambition, etc.

    I say this because I’ve been thinking about what Luis said to me and he is right. I should not have attempted to guess at Craig’s motivation. If Craig or Hitchens do have ulterior motives they are hardly alone and the fact does nothing to diminish their points. For that I must apologize. Thanks Luis for calling me on that one.

  200. Luis Dias Says:

    Tim,

    In my post from May 30–the last one I submitted–be aware that I *denied* ineffability as stipulated by you. I never affirmed it. You should aim your criticism toward someone who actually holds to the notion of ineffability you describe.

    This is one of the problems with religion of course, everyone has his own :). I’m directing this criticism to every serious christian theologian that I know of, and I could add muslim and judaic theologians. They have concluded long ago that God was “innefable”, and the only way that such abysmal difference could ever be overcome would be by God himself (for he’s capable of everything, so his fans keep saying), and thus the prophets, thus the messiahs, thus the “son of god”. This is why christians, for example, keep saying that jesus is the path to god, there is no other, for if this schism is infinite in nature, only when the two worlds intersect have we got the slightest chance of glimpsing the other part, thus we should follow jesus (he’s the truth, etc).

    Back to our discussion, if you want to deny a conclusion of a deductive argument (such as that employed by the natural theologian), there two and only two ways to do so (if you want to do so rationally, that is): deny a premise or show invalidity.

    This is what I’ve done. He states that Moral Absolutes exist (he calls them “objective moral values”, it’s the same thing), but he gives no evidence of this, he merely pounds on the table. He then states that these “moral absolutes” are evidence of a God. Could be. He just missed the part where he would prove that these absolutes do in fact exist. Empirically, I see evidence of the contrary. While there are things that are somewhat stable, most moral values have radically changed since the time of the writing of the Genesis book.

    I can tell you though that that’s not happening here though and now it should be clear why.

    It isn’t. Please clarify me. From what I see, if you claim tertium datur, I immediately declare victory, for you agree you are no less of a relativist than I am ;).

    If you’re unfamiliar with all this talk of deductive validity…

    I’m familiar with bivalent logic, thanks.

    I am *within* the camp that thinks propositions about God stand in logical relations to other propositions. I.e. I, like you, deny that God is somehow “above logic.”

    The problem is that from my point of view, your view is no more or less true than those who feel that God is above logic. I understand that you don’t like the idea, it gives christians the creeps whenever someone hints at the possibility of God being “beyond good and evil”. But, if you like bivalent logic so much, you do understand the point that I make that, if a theist claims god is ineffable (as many do in fact), then they cannot say they are not above logic.

    I’m glad though that you go for the simpler version and declare that God is knowable. No one has ever shown how metaphysics is even true, so you have a lot of work still ahead of you.

    @Paul, np, I usually fall on those lines too, specially in my own bad days :p.

  201. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    Hi Tim

    OK a few points to address there:

    1) On your methodological point I am having a hard time understanding why you would bother to even bring this up. Ineffable is hardly a subjective word but rather is about as specific in its definition as any I can think of. I thank you for your advice but I must say I do not see it as either warranted or relevant.

    In any case, my point was that the use of the word might or might not have been appropriate but the point was intelligible and easily understood. I then went on to give the example of the cosmological argument to remove any doubt from the discussion. After showing not only where the cosmological argument goes wrong but why that argument should never be applied in the first place I asked you directly if you agreed with me in so much as the argument is at least flawed. As far as I can tell your response has been a vaguely pedagogical point about the use of dictionary definitions.

    Which leads us to:

    2) I am beginning to see why these discussions never end in anything productive. I am sorry to put it like this but Luis has done nothing but attack the foundations of Craig’s deductive reasoning. If you see his or my language as not being acceptable or of the proper format I propose, with all due respect, you are being narrow-minded.

    Luis has explained clearly, as have I, where we see the problems with Craig’s reasoning. In fact, I have already addressed all of this effectively in my last message to you.

    3) In order to bring this back to something recognizable I will tackle the moral argument. As I have said, we do not have a scientific theory of morality as such at this present time. We have hypotheses from various camps (some of them armed) but nothing verifiable. With that in mind I respectfully propose that we are all on common ground in the sense that we are all guessing when it comes to the origins of morality.

    Now, with that in mind let’s bring this whole thing to a conclusion shall we? What do you believe is the point here? If it is that the moral argument is sound, you are correct. I concede the point gladly. If it is that the soundness of it proves anything I disagree strongly.

    Why do I disagree? Simply because the entire discussion is based on a question that has no satisfactory answer. It may well be that the moral argument is correct and it may well be that it is not. We simply do not know. I fail completely to see how such an argument could be offered as evidence for anything.

    Luckily for all of us Craig is offering it as an argument for the rationality of his world view. On that point I agree with him: it does seem to be a rational view in as much as it is at least possible that the argument is correct.

    Unfortunately for us Craig liberally uses the word evidence and in doing so, in my view, obscures his overall point. His argument is sound and can easily be accepted as an hypothesis, but it cannot be accepted as evidence under any existing definition of the word.

    If we cannot agree on this point I respectfully suggest that we are kicking a dead horse.

    Is there some question here about the role of philosophy in science? I am beginning to think there may be.

  202. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    Oh and the point of deductive validity I must admit I find it very hard to distinguish the premise or premises for the moral argument. I certainly agree with the article you provided but I am not sure at all how to apply it to what Craig offered.

    In order to offer something I should say what I perceive the argument to be:

    1) Morality exists.
    2) Morality is either subjective or objective.
    3) In order for it to be objective it must come from a higher power.

    If there is a fourth step as Craig seems to imply and the existence of the Christian god can somehow logically be concluded I will deal with that point only if it becomes necessary.

    My problems with this idea are as follows:

    1) No problem here. Morality as a concept does seem to exist.

    2) I do not see how this premise can even be argued. We don’t know what morality is let alone how it might have originated. Furthermore I am not entirely sure how one could go about showing how morality is either objective or subjective.

    If I understand the concept correctly, objective morals would exist with or without the presence of humans to perceive them. Opinion would have nothing to do with it. On this basis I cannot see how a case could be made for the existence of objective morality.

    Even if I have poorly laid out the argument I believe I am safe in assuming that the moral argument relies on the existence of objective morals. Since that existence cannot be shown to be true I cannot see how one could build an argument on it.

    3) If objective morals could be shown to exist then I would be very interested in knowing where they came from. In fact I will go so far as to say that evidence for the existence of objective morals would make me seriously reconsider my world view.

    However, assuming we could prove the existence of objective morals and, assuming we could determine which morals are objective and which are not I do not see how such a feat would lend credibility to any particular religion.

    I must admit the whole discussion seems circular to me. One can logically believe in objective morals essentially only if one logically believes in a higher power. I have no particular problem with this belief except I cannot distinguish a starting point for the chain of logic.

    I mean does one argue that objective morals exist because of a belief in a higher power and then later or at the same time argue that a higher power exists because one believes that objective morals exist? Chickens and eggs come to mind.

    If the question is then, how does one explain the existence of objective morals and further what is the best existing explanation my answer can only be a question: do objective morals exist? It seems to me that before we ever get into discussing the role of a higher power we have a bit of work to do.

    p.s. I will try to trim down my responses as much as possible but if I am asked questions which I feel require lengthy answers I will provide them. I can assure you that I read every word of every post relevant to any discussion I take part in.

  203. John 07' Says:

    Was Hitchens paid to participate in this event? I have always felt that Mr. Hitchens is merely a sensationalist who enjoys controversy because it sells his products. He is the “Borat” of faux atheist apologetics. It is his chosen “craft” in which to prosper. He has learned his subject matter well because bombastic attacks on God in general and Christianity in particular must be fairly well articulated and a bit outrageous to keep the books flying off the shelves and appearances on TV in demand. He was apparently ill prepared for a real and proper debate because, in reality, he could care less about whether God exists or not. Follow the money. It was a gig for Mr. Hitchens.

  204. Hi John,

    Yes, Hitchens commands a substantial fee. This is how he butters his bread. A debate for him is a significant source of revenue, first for the gig itself, and second for book promotion and sales.

  205. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    Hi John07,

    As Doug said to an earlier poster calling himself Voltaire who posted something similar to you but from the other side:

    “I’m glad you’ve dropped in. It would be valuable to have an argument from you for one or more of your assertions.”

    Except in your case you haven’t said anything at all about Hitchens’ arguments. Voltaire at least addressed the subject matter.

  206. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    The more I think about this the more I find it hard to understand why anyone thinks Craig made a convincing argument. He starts with two contentions:

    1) That there’s no good argument that atheism is true.
    2) That there are good arguments that theism is true.

    At this point it is extremely important to note that his second contention does not specify what brand of theism he is going to argue for. Nevertheless, I think I am on safe ground in assuming that he is referring to Christian theism and that whenever he uses the word god he is referring to the Christian God. There is ample evidence in the debate for my assumption.

    His argument for his second contention appears to consist of five parts:

    1) The Cosmological Argument: Craig’s argument relies on the contested school of thought that infinity is absurd and that something cannot come from nothing. On infinity he says, referring to mathematical objections to infinity, “…this shows that infinity is just an idea in your mind not something that exists in reality”. From this he goes on to suggest the universe must have had a beginning since past events are not ideas but are real and must therefore be finite.

    I object strongly to his assertion that, quote, “this conclusion has been confirmed by remarkable discoveries in astronomy and astrophysics”. No such conclusion has been reached by science. In fact, the Big Bang theory only seems to show that everything in the universe came from a singularity. The nature of that singularity, including its origin and what may lie beyond it, is the subject of a great deal of speculation. Craig goes so far as to call the Big Bang “absolute” and “cataclysmic” but neither of these words has been shown to be accurate by any scientific evidence.

    However, none of this, as interesting as it may be, is relevant to Craig’s second contention. The real meat of his argument comes a few seconds later when, after concluding that the universe was created by a being, he states:

    “This being must be an uncaused, timeless, spaceless, immaterial being of unfathomable power. Moreover, it must be personal as well. Why? Because the cause must be beyond space and time. Therefore it cannot be physical or material. Now there are only two kinds of things that fit that description. Either an abstract object like numbers or else a personal mind, but abstract objects can’t cause anything therefore it follows that the cause of the universe is a transcendent intelligent mind. Thus the cosmological argument gives us a personal creator of the universe.”

    Assuming he is arguing for his second contention, Craig must either show how the cosmological argument is theistic in nature or he must later use it as support for a theistic argument. Leaving aside the use of the word personal, Craig’s argument up to this point is purely deistic in nature so I must conclude he is going to make a connection to theism at some later point.

    2) The Teleological Argument: As Craig states, “In recent decades scientists have been stunned by the discovery that the initial conditions of the Big Bang were fine-tuned for the existence of intelligent life with a precision and delicacy that literally defy human comprehension.”

    I think there are dozens of objections that could be raised to Craig’s argument but I only want to judge it based on its relevance to his second contention. Once again, Craig concludes an intelligent designer but does not mention any connection to theism.

    3) The Moral Argument: If God does not exist then objective moral values do not exist. Craig’s argument here appears to boil down to his statement:

    “The problem is that objective values do exist and deep down we all know it. In moral experience we apprehend a realm of objective moral goods and evils. Actions like rape, cruelty and child abuse aren’t just socially unacceptable behaviour they’re moral abominations. Some things at least are really wrong. Similarly love, equality and self-sacrifice are really good. But then it follows logically and necessarily that God exists.”

    In a nutshell, objective moral values exist because some things are really wrong.

    Leaving aside the chasm Craig has just leaped into, the argument is not theistic and once again we are left waiting for something in support of his second contention.

    4) The resurrection of Jesus: Craig makes several statements of interest here but I think they can all be summed up by the following:

    “Historians have reached something of a consensus that the historical Jesus came on the scene with an unprecedented sense of divine authority: the authority to stand and speak in God’s place. He claimed that in himself the kingdom of God had come and as visible demonstrations of this fact he carried out a ministry of miracle working and exorcisms. But the supreme confirmation of his claim was his resurrection from the dead. If Jesus did rise from the dead then it would seem we have a divine miracle on our hands and thus evidence for the existence of God.”

    As I have done before I will only judge his argument based on its relevance to his second contention. Whether or not one agrees with the basic premise of the argument (that the Bible is true) Craig is surely making a case for theism and therefore one that is relevant to his second contention.

    Having said that, I did not detect a connection to his previous three arguments. Since Craig was not clear on this point I can only assume one of two things: first, there is no connection and Craig is simply blowing smoke or, the second, all four arguments are evidence for the Christian God. The first seems unlikely so I will assume the second.

    Of course, if that is the case, he would logically be obligated to conclude that many of the beliefs held by other religions, if not most of their central tenets, are untrue. Craig did not make this argument but he should have.

    In any case, the argument from the resurrection of Christ is undeniably an argument for Christian theism. As such a connection to the previous three deistic arguments is required. Craig did not offer that connection.

    5) The experience of God: I think I am on safe ground in saying that this point has no place in a debate of this kind. I say this because the argument, as I understand it, would be valid evidence for any religious belief. In other words, the argument could be equally applied to any argument for any version of theism. Since I have already concluded that Craig’s second contention can only stand if his first four points are taken as arguments for Christian theism, I must reject his fifth point as irrelevant.

    In conclusion, Craig presented three arguments for deism, one for Christian theism and one that was utterly irrelevant to his second contention.

    On this basis I conclude that not only was Craig unclear on the most critical element of his overall argument, he did not provide a coherent argument for his second contention.

  207. Hi Paul,

    With summer responsibilities, I’ve been less attentive to blogging. Sorry for the delay in posting your comment.

    How about defining for us each of the terms that are so crucial to the argument you’re making: “theism,” “deism,” and “Christian theism”?

    -Doug

  208. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    Hi Doug

    No, that’s not necessary at all. Just don’t respond if you don’t understand what I’ve said.

  209. I see… the ol’ “It’s too difficult for you to understand” routine. I mean no offense, but that’s probably one of the most common mistakes made by atheists when they debate the theists (whether they be deists, Christians, or whatever). I’m not going to state if I have a religion or if I believe in a god or not, but that was a somewhat odd reply. It IS necessary to know what the opposing viewpoint is and how to define it in your own words. A Quaker is much different than a Baptist. A Humanist is much different than a nihilist.

    In my opinion though, it doesn’t matter whether or not you agreed with the points Craig made. The fact remains that Hitchens was not doing great at all in this debate. I think he’s actually gotten worse for the past couple of years, but that’s my opinion.

  210. Luis Dias Says:

    By Christian Theism Paul is referring to the existence of a God rightly described by the Bible, that is, a loving, caring, active God that will answer to prayers.

    By Deism, Paul is referring to the existence of a Demiurgic God or Force or whatever have you, some kind of an “energy” that is passive, inable or died long ago, or is simply of other worries on other universes etc. That is, it is used merely to explain the coming about of this universe. It’s not obligated to be inactive, but when it is active, it is called a “theistic god”.

    I understand that Craig tried to put “deism” under the carpet of “theism”, as if deism was something that was inside the theistic camp, when Hitchens argued that many of Craig’s points were points for the deistic god, not the theistic god. Craig then made a very bad show of mathematics and logic by saying that Deism was a subset of Theism, not the other way around, disregarding the simple notion that a more specific being such as a theistic god is obviously a subset of a more generalized being such as a deistic god, that is, some kind of a god that not only created the world but also is active upon it.

    Leaving aside that controversy of who is the subset of which, (which is also telling of many other things), Hitchens was rightly saying that most of Craig’s points were not evidence of the Christian God at all. The only point was Christ himself, and given his personal admiration for faith above evidence as Hitchens quoted him in his own book saying, and given the sheer absence of evidence apart from a cooked and forged old book (something that many many religions also possess, btw), it is a very weak evidence.

    Anyways, even considering that someone did exist at that time, I would fully agree with Nietzche’s take on him on the Antichrist. If anything, JC wouldn’t call himself a christian today.

  211. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    Hi Luis

    Exactly and well said as usual.

    My main problem with the argument from the resurrection is that it is based almost entirely on faith in the Bible. If the same standard of evidence is applied any number of contradictory events from any number of texts can be given equal or superior credibility. I have no doubt that there are Muslim, Jewish or Hindu scholars (to name a few) that could easily use the same kind of argument.

    Craig’s entire second contention (the heart and soul of his position) swings on this very point. In fact, Craig could easily omit his other four arguments and, staying only with his fourth, end up exactly where he did. Better put, once you clear away all the smoke and mirrors you are left with a single argument entirely based on the veracity of the Bible.

    Hi Chekov

    I’m sorry it appears that way but there’s more to this story than you know. Let me just say that my response to Doug was for Doug alone. Normally, I would never use an argument of the type you suggest and in fact always welcome constructive feedback on the arguments I do offer. Certainly I would welcome it from you if it were offered.

    On a side note, I disagree with you on Hitchens’ performance in this debate. I thought Craig was weak and transparent while Hitchens was authentic and extremely convincing. Of course this is just an opinion. I would never go so far as to refer to my opinion as a fact.

  212. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    Hi Luis

    Sorry but I should say that by theism I am referring to any belief that a supernatural power or powers of any kind intervene in human affairs. From there, as I’m sure you know, specific religions make claims on the nature of both that higher power and to what extent that higher power intervenes. Christian theism would be one of those claims.

    I was also extremely surprised to hear Craig say deism is simply a branch of theism. He could not be more wrong. In fact, deism is a direct refutation of theism. The only thing that amazes me more is how many theists do not understand the significance of this distinction.

  213. Hi Paul,
    Luis, you’re invited to reply here, too. How much of Craig’s work have you read? Which titles?

  214. Hi Paul,
    Luis, you’re invited to reply here, too. How much of Craig’s work have you read? Which titles? Broadening the scope a bit more, how familiar would you say you are with analytic philosophy of religion?

  215. Valkyrie.0010 Says:

    I don’t get it why people don’t focuse on the history of the bible more, because science if it proves one thing ever, it is how much we don’t know for certain about.
    I would love to see a debate on just the historical figure of Jesus and is he who the bible claims he is, with no science or philosophy.
    To me you can argue philosophy till you blue in the face, because all philosophers based the opinions on experience and beliefs, to me it is nothing concrete like anthropology or archaeology or history,which is really quite concrete most of the time

  216. [...] someone intensely bitter (which, ironically, people see Christianity like this today) or someone bumbling, intellectually scatterbrained and irrelevant.And to be honest, William Lane Craig is a pretty [...]

  217. courageousfaithdotcom Says:

    Valkyrie: There is significant archaeological and historical evidence for both the validity of scripture and the person of Jesus of Nazareth. However, I have found that relationship, not philosophy, has become the greatest evidence for me. When you are acquainted with an individual, you know them. Jesus’ invitation to men is not one of evidence, but of relationship, though evidence abounds. I enjoyed Lee Strobel’s book “Case for Christ.” You can learn about the author at http://www.leestrobel.com/. He, as a non-Christian, sought to “prove” or “disprove” the Jesus of the bible. His journey is interesting and addresses some of those proofs you are talking about. My point is not that “proofs” don’t exist. it is that proofs only bring you to a point of decision. Knowing Christ is the real deal on the other side of the “proofs.”

  218. Paul MacGillivray Says:

    Hi Tim

    I first saw Craig in the early 90s when he appeared on the CBC here in Canada. Since then I have come across him more and more often on youtube and other venues (like the horrid 100 Huntley Street). Despite a great deal of interest in his style, more so than the content of his arguments, it was only recently I actually took the time to have a look at his writings.

    As it stands right now I would say I have a fairly clear grasp of his major arguments but admittedly haven’t read any of his books. Craig’s excellent website reasonablefaith.org has been far and away my main source.

    On analytical philosophy I would say my exposure to it has been mostly through chance. More often than not I stumble across a philosopher with something to add to a topic I am interested in. In other words, if I have gained some fluency in the language of philosophy I have only done so in order to understand the arguments its proponents make. The actual study of logic itself does not interest me greatly.

  219. Luis, you’re invited to reply here, too. How much of Craig’s work have you read? Which titles? Broadening the scope a bit more, how familiar would you say you are with analytic philosophy of religion?

    I do not know his work, and from what I’ve heard him saying, I do not think I want to. I don’t like wasting my time with people who have problems understanding basic things like phenomenology, the problem of induction, the problem of noumena, the problem of sticking our noses only on what we can observe, perceive and test. When I hear someone claiming that a witness that claims supernatural deeds or observations should be given more credit than cold hard evidence, my brain hurts. There I see how he managed to be a theist. He’s just gullible.

  220. Warrick Walker Says:

    I just found this site so here are some comments from a newbie. Thanks for a wonderful report on the Craig vs. Hitchens debate. I found it to be balanced and informative. I actually stayed up into the wee hours reading every post, much to my wife’s chagrin! One point that seems to standout is that a naturalist explanation for creation is not even on the horizon. Invoking bizarre theories such as the multiverse only pushes the same problem off on another universe or universes. Indeed, it seems it would be doubly hard to account for multiple realities. I believe that the underlying objection to God existing has nothing to do with the fact of his existing. Rather, it is the resistance to accountability that is at the root of atheism. I have often discussed the God question with atheists, and invariably the biggest objection is “no one should tell me how to live”. The moment God’s existence is acknowledged, lifestyle change is almost invariably forced on the atheist. We have only to look to history to see many examples of this, C. S. Lewis and Lee Strobel being two modern ones that quickly come to mind. Countless other examples could be given. Sadly, our society ruthlessly reinforces this “I want what I want when I want it” mentality, to its own ultimate detriment. Strangely, I have more sympathy for people who can at least agree that a Creator must exist (we are here, after all) but simply choose to reject his overtures, than those people who continue with what I see as intellectual dishonesty. They are simply without excuse. One of the things I admire most about Craig is his commitment to getting to the truth, and not just trying to “win” the argument. Far too often, debaters on both sides of the aisle have allowed this to be a stumbling block not only for themselves but for their listeners (dare I say followers?) as well. I believe it was Pascal who said that “unless you love the truth you cannot know it” (or was it Francis Schaeffer?). What amazing things might be discovered if we all endeavored to follow this admonition? Simply put, let’s follow the evidence wherever it leads, even if that means changing our opinions sometimes. I also believe that, while the testimony of our lives through the power of the Holy Spirit is the main weapon in the Christian arsenal, there is some value in debunking competing world views. In particular, something as ubiquitous as evolution practically cries out to be challenged. Creation or evolution seems to be the only game in town. Hopefully, by discrediting evolution, some people will be driven to consider the cross as the only logical and well founded explanation for …. Everything! I would be remiss if I didn’t take the time to remark on the general quality of the posts, in particular the level of hostility that is sometimes apparent. While this sometimes happens on the creation side, here and on other sites, it is more prevalent when reading submissions by atheists. This speaks volumes to me, as it does nothing to further the debate but rather helps to reinforce stereotypes of narrow mindedness and incivility. When we end up resorting to ad hominem attacks we essentially are admitting that we have lost the argument. I am most grateful for your patient and kind answers to all of the posters. The bible tells us to “always be prepared to give an answer for the hope you have, with gentleness and respect”. You are putting this into practice daily, and I commend you. By the way, I thoroughly enjoyed the conversations between Habermas and Flew. This is the way dialogue is supposed to take place. I look forward to posting again in the future. God bless.

  221. Hi Warrick,

    I’m very glad to have a new visitor who will return to this blog on a regular basis. Welcome!

    You’re point about the existential significance of the choice between theism and atheism (or naturalism) is spot on. Some naturalists concur very publicly. A recent example is Professor Arif Ahmed, who debated William Lane Craig at Cambridge University on the question, “Is It Reasonable to Believe in God?” In his opening statement, which can be found in audio on the internet, he declared that the question of God’s existence is supremely important, and that, if he changed his mind about the existence of God he would have to change the way he lives his life.

    What about “unless you love the truth, you cannot know it”? Blaise Pascal, or Francis Schaeffer? This is something you can imagine hearing from both of them, and many other Christian intellectuals. Pascal did say that the Christian’s challenge is to help them wish that Christianity is true, then help them see that it is.

    Again, welcome to this site. And please let your wife know that I understand whereof she speaks. I, too, have a loving (hence patient) wife. As someone else once said, “A man’s gotta’ know his limits.”

    -Doug

  222. I am wondering if the observations posted do not confirm the results ofearlier studies that suggest eye-witness testimony can be notoriously unreliable. William Craig maintained a line of ineffectual argument and clearly has difficulty understanding some of the arguments major facets. Notably that the onus is always on the positive claimant to present evidence in support of their argument. Occam’s razor tells us that the elaborate nature of theology is suspect because there is no supporting evidence, in contrast the evidence for the existence of a universe beyond theology’s limits are manifest.
    As made clear earlier, arguing that there’s historical evidence for a factual ressurection based on the second and third-hand new testament accounts is difficult. In a modern court, nevermind an academic setting, such evidence would be labelled anecdotal or hearsay, that the doyen of modern theologians is prepared to use the argument regardless is telling.

  223. Hello Sean, and welcome to this blog. Thanks for leaving your comment.

    What literature would you recommend on the nature and value of testimonial evidence for historical events? Also, what studies of the historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus have you examined?

    -Doug

  224. Warrick Walker Says:

    Sean: You have made some wide sweeping claims not only concerning Dr. Craig but also with regard to modern theologians. Unfortunately, you have not presented much in the way of argument as to why you think you are correct. What facets(plural) of the argument do you believe Dr. Craig does not understand? Most people generally believe his evidentiary arguements are quite sound, if not compelling.How was his argument ineffectual, given that most observers feel that he won the debate? In fact, Occam’s razor (or the principle of the simplest answer is generally correct) would seem to support a creation viewpoint. What could be simpler than an all powerful creator bringing his creation into existence? Conversely, science not only makes a good case for creation (all of those finely tuned parameters necessary for existence can’t be just coincidence) but science has no viable explanation for the beginning of everything. Indeed, no theory is even on the horizon. As to your assertion that the case for the resurrection wouldn’t stand up in court, let me just mention that no less an authority than Harvard’s Simon Greenleaf is on the record as saying that the gospel accounts are credible when examined in the light of the rules of modern evidence. If you would like to explore this angle more thoroughly, check out his Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice published( I believe) in 1984 by Baker of Grand Rapids. A quick Google of his name should convince you of his credentials. Indeed, even liberal scholars largely accept that the tomb was (and is) empty. Their efforts have largely focused on coming up with another explanation for the resurrection. To date, all of their alternate theories have been overturned. Finally, thanks for posting. Only in an honest exchange of ideas can we hope to arrive at the truth. God bless.

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